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FOMATPLAY: here we go so thank you Marion for for receiving me after all this time and this struggle in your lovely house um as you know when we first met I told you briefly the aim of uh this project is like to have have a better understanding of your arrival in France and bit of your story um do you mind first uh telling me a bit of where you come from where you grew up MARION: yeah sure FOMATPLAY: yeah MARION: um so I grew up in the south of England um in a very small little village um and that village gradually grew and then I but I went to school um firstly in the village itself and then at the secondary school I used to have to take a bus and to a larger town and and that's and that's where I did the most of my education up to A-level um I then did um a short time down on the coast in um Hove um and went to university in London and I first I studied biology and later on I went on to study um education and I was a teacher for a while and whilst teaching I decided I wanted to start working internationally so I applied to do um an international work um job in Kenya um and taught in Kenya for for a while I taught um science biology and art um whilst I was there in a small village in called Thika um and it was whilst I was in Kenya that I became interested in in kind of other things in in terms of nutrition and I had the opportunity to go and do some work at the university of Nairobi um and looking at at um nutrition in malnourished children and learnt how to use statistical packages and that sort of thing but it was on mainframe computers because it's a long time ago so it was before you could you could just have a a computer in a pocket as they were um and decided as a result of doing that that I'd go back to university and I did a Masters in human nutrition at the London School of hygiene and Tropical Medicine and I then had the opportunity to to go and work in um Sri Lanka I started a PhD there but um Sri Lanka at that time was going through a period of instability and there was there was kind of FOMATPLAY: with the Tigers MARION the with the Tigers and so the Tigers were a big problem and then there was the rise of the JVP which was a southern um which is a a far extremist um group and the government at the time decided to completely and utterly annihilate them and so there were immense numbers of people who were killed and the young it was mainly young men between the ages of eighteen and and thirty and it became it was a really challenging time we did think about moving because you go anywhere and you'd you come across atrocities it was a very um stressful time but our Sri Lankan friends also said to us that if you if all our international friends leave they have no they they will continue to kill in the most appalling way so we ended up staying for quite some time um and I I I I soon realised that there was no way I could continue with my PhD there because you couldn't travel around you were um the train I used to take the train from county down to Colombo because I was mainly working around the Colombo area and that all stopped um then I did some work for an an a voluntary sector organisation around candy um but then in the end we we decided to move on and my husband dis- um got a job in after that it was in Nepal so we moved from Sri Lanka to Nepal and I finally got to do my PhD in Nepal and so I was working with women's groups there um going and walking walking up into the hills and and working with with groups um really had a fascinating time um FOMATPLAY: was that in the early nineties MARION: yes yeah yeah yeah um before they had the killing of their royal family which was so I left just before the that time and that the when the whole of the royal family was murdered FOMATPLAY: was it ninety-one MARION: yes yeah yeah I finished my PhD in ninety FOMATPLAY: so so yeah you finished your PhD but in Nepal MARION: yes FOMATPLAY: right okay how how long did you stay in those different places like in Sri Lanka and in Nepal MARION: um in Sri Lanka I was there um for four years altogether and Nepal similar lengths of time as well yeah because yeah it was about four four four five years that I was in in Nepal and so what I I did I was I I did my field work and then I would go back to the UK and and be in the UK at the university for periods of about three months so I had to do everything intensely so all my kind of meeting up with supervisors was instead of having its kind of over time it was like really concerted lots of intense meetings and and and then I did things like oh we were going off to do um there was one summer that was a madness I ended up going from back to UK and then to the States to to see my aunt from the States to Canada to give a paper and then we did something else as well we went to I had a paper I was giving in Mexico as well so I was it was like at I had so many time zones in that summer it was untrue but it was really really fantastic really enjoyed having the opportunity to share what I was doing in terms of my work and and get an additional input into how I was thinking and um that which was really great FOMATPLAY: so so all that period uh do how did you adapt yourself to first in Kenya which was was it the first time you were going overseas from UK um I I had that was the first time I actually lived overseas yes FOMATPLAY: lived MARION: but prior to that it was just holidays which is a very different kind of it's so so different going on a holiday than actually living in a place um and I think the reason I enjoy I had I wanted to go to Kenya in the first instance was I had did have family there FOMATPLAY: alright MARION: um some of my um I had cousins who who lived who lived in Kenya so I had been and visited there before I went and worked there FOMATPLAY: do you think it was helpful before arriving in Sri Lanka cause India is you know something quite place quite special that can be sometimes really attractive or really repulsive depending on how well so that the years you spent in Kenya was it a help for you to or MARION: Kenya and Sri Lanka are so so different FOMATPLAY: of course MARION: and and I think I think one of the things that's happened as a result of of traveling so much is I've had a multicultural in it experience so I've learnt an (uncertain) lots about different ways of looking at things cause like um Sri Lanka is mainly Buddhist Nepal is mainly Hindu but there are some Buddhists up in in the mountains and then Kenya is predominantly Christian um but in in Nepal as well you've got the animist um religions as well so that some of the some of the communities that I worked with were they they were more kind of yeah they were more animist in their in their in their way of doing things and so I think that was really fascinating for me it meant that I had an opportunity to see how religion played out in in in community life and it was and it's very strong in real communities that that well I experienced so it was fascinating to to see how how that how going to the temple and the different rituals played out in everyday life and in Sri Lanka you you you realize you knew there was things that went on on an everyday basis that that people were taking their offerings and doing their prayer and all of those things and it was integral to their lives and it and yeah I I I've found it fascinating I enjoyed seeing how people different communities live their life and I think as a result of that I have a very different approach to how I live my life as well FOMATPLAY: did you learn any of the local languages MARION: yes so I speak I spoke Sinhalese I had this um a teacher who was an amazing lady her name was Visaka Dammadasa um and she used to come to the my home and um we got on terribly well I still am in touch with her after so many years and um her her husband was a um gemologist and she and she taught and um and uh my two girls grew up with her boys so so that they all knew each other and she's she now does work with the UN and and women's organizations because her son her youngest her eldest son was um went missing during the um the strife in that in the country and so he he um he's one of the lost as they and so she became very much involved in the peace process and in fact I think she has an OBE from the um from her for her work in in in Sri Lanka FOMATPLAY: so that was the only one in in Nepal did you start all over again MARION: yeah so in Nepal I started again I spoke Nepalese yeah because I was doing my PhD there so I had to be able to speak to the um the women that I was working with so it but it was quite interesting because some of the um it's very Nepalese is is got similarities um to Hindu um kind of some of the languages that are spoken amongst the Hindu and the like next neighbouring countries and so forth but and there's a a kind of highly educated form of the language that's almost like Sanskrit and so you get so the the local the villagers speak of one form of the of Nepalese and the children speak another form of the Nepalese so my kids they would all spoke Nepalese fluently and when they when we went back to the UK they kind of had to learn English in terms of because they spoke with their friends in Nepalese the whole time so they didn't speak they spoke English at home of course but it's kind of different than what you need in school and so they they started again as as they were and FOMATPLAY: where are they born MARION: um so my eldest was born in Kenya FOMATPLAY: uh huh MARION: and my youngest was born in the UK but we were in um FOMATPLAY: raised in MARION: so we we had ended up so we had to so one was born overseas and one was born in the UK um and what um Kayshani my eldest was born in the UK because Sri Lanka at that time because of the all the problems the hospitals closed for a while and so I I decided I would go back and have a my baby in the UK so that's what I ended up doing FOMATPLAY: how old are they now MARION: um so they're in their thirties now so yes so Kay is doing my eldest is doing a PhD in in Utrecht at a university of Utrecht and um Suzanne she works in London um but they're both interested in international kind of um topics Kay studied international relations and Mandarin at university and my youngest studied ecology and conservation so they they both got interests that are not kind of mainstream as it were FOMATPLAY: did you do the same thing in France like learning cause we're doing the interview in English right MARION: yeah my French is is not I think my French I I kind of speak an intermediate kind of level of French and so I have enough to have an a conversation but to have a conversation like this I my French is not good enough and I think that's as a result of not working here because I'm working in the UK if I had if I had got a job say where I was teaching and I would I would have then got to a place where I was able to communicate effectively because I like to be able to have in depth conversations about politics or whatever a book that I particularly enjoyed and but I can't do that I I find it very frustrating that I'm not able to to communicate as fluently as I would like to to do so FOMATPLAY: so for how long have you been in France now MARION: um eight years but I've been working in the UK so I kind of it's backwards and forwards backwards and forwards I have and because I work in a fairly senior role in the UK I am using I'm thinking I'm working out my what my approach to things the way I do my work is all in English the whole time and I don't have enough immersion locally um to to improve the French my French to the level I would like to be able to speak it FOMATPLAY: so how is it exactly how how long um what time do you spend in France compared to UK MARION: um I speak spend more time in France but because of working hybrid now because I'm my my the um I have a team and they and so I converse with them on on team over teams so zoom on a regular basis and then I'll what I do is go to the UK usually for about one or two weeks a month every month okay um and so so that's I find that because I'm think my thinking is going on is I'm using English all the time if I was working here and doing that same kind of work of course my French would have improved but it's not very easy as a non French person to get work in France they don't recognize that my PhD they don't recognize my Masters they I would have to have started again from the bottom up and because I have so much experience um uh as a public health professional and public health is done differently here as well so that it's not like if I'd been say a physiotherapist I would have been able to work get work here or um even a medicine a clinical person using a medical background possibly I would have been able to but not the kind of work that I've my area of work because it's things that are so different not my qualifications aren't recognized FOMATPLAY: so what made the the decision eight years ago for you to come here MARION: so oh goodness me I was working in Kent and the organization I worked for I had a really difficult time I was bullied um and John said to said to me well why don't we think about moving and so so I thought yes let's do let's think about moving and and then he he was looking at well how about cause we've spent because of living in Kent which is so easy to get across to France we'd we'd come across to France up loads just to get get go drive down FOMATPLAY: before Brexit MARION: before Brexit before so you drive down take the car on the train go off spend week long weekend in in the all the little villages and all of that sort of thing we used to have just really enjoy it and so then John said to me let's move to France and I thought oh well why not yeah fine and so then we started looking and um and John loves skiing and so he what we ended up deciding was to look for somewhere that was not far from the coast and not far far from the ski slopes so this part of France is perfect in that regard because it's like an hour and a bit to the ski slopes an hour and a and just under an hour to the coast so what could be better um and I I'm not a kind of person that needs towns I love um cultural and cause I paint and I love art and this part of France the the light is just amazing so as an artists it's it's lovely because you get a very special quality um it's just wonderful so it's a perfect place in terms of where we are and enjoy our surroundings I love to be able to walk I can walk out the back door into the garden into the forest with and and some days I can meet absolutely nobody on the hill on the mountain this I'll just walk for an hour and see nobody and it's just it's a lovely place to be if you're at it but if you need lots and lots of people it's not such a great wouldn't be such a great place to be because um FOMATPLAY: and how exactly did you find like Joch especially MARION: oh how did we find Joch um we in fact put found a place not very far from here and that that fell through and John was just looking on the internet one day and saw this a photograph of this house and pinged an email across to somebody and they said oh you can come and see the house and so on one of our visits down this way we came to to see the house and then we saw about five or six other houses around the area and but this one had something about it that we really enjoyed so we came we asked to come back again and this house was at that time was being sold by somebody who was had moved back to the UK so some an English person and there was a the person who was showing us around was Irish I think or Welsh Welsh so in the village here but um was actually of Welsh heritage and so they showed showed us around we thought about it and decided yeah this is the one and put in an offer and it got accepted and so that that was the beginning of our um journey here FOMATPLAY: how do you feel since then you've been integrated to the life of this small village MARION: yeah so yeah we kind we um we know John particularly he knows far more people than I do because he's here the whole time um and there's there's things that go on in village life so that people come together for fetes and meal having meals together and um various times throughout the year so we we kind of got to know people in in the village and um um so yeah we're kind of happily happily talk chat to people in the village FOMATPLAY: would would you say that your main network is made of uh locals or other um British or Irish MARION: some Irish some are um Irish quite international I not so many um local people but we do have some really good friends like Philippe Jourda who's the local vigneron is a really he's a fabulous friend of ours and him and his wife and um and then there are others English people Irish people yeah Irish people as as well FOMATPLAY: so mostly English speaking people MARION: yes mostly English speaking people mostly English yeah which is not what I envisaged at all but then I think it's quite interesting because Catalonia is different from France Catalan people are very proud and and they also and a lot of the old people here in the village hardly speak French so I don't like for example one one day when I was trying to speak French to the mayor and was really struggling and one of my friends said to me well he's being very naughty he's actually speaking mainly in Catalan and interspersing it with French and so that's why you're having much more difficulty in in having a conversation with him because he's he's not completely speaking French um but there's some really friendly people in the village they always smile and and help be helpful to to to us as well but it's I I but yeah Catalans are not incredibly welcoming if you're an outsider especially in small villages I think as well um I think some of the people who there's a lot in a Joch is a very small village and there's quite a lot of people from all different backgrounds especially in the in the old part because I think there and as a result of that I think yeah this I just they don't there's there's not a welcome open door to people who are not from they kind of feel that this is their village and their life and I think it's they're saddened that there's foreigners who've come into the village as it were FOMATPLAY: do you think it's due to the amount of foreigners that have been here already before you maybe MARION: possibly cause I think there's about half a cause you think of Joch is only about hundred and twenty people and I would say there's about ten or so in the in the the there's quite a ten or so people who are outsiders more maybe more than that because I think some of the um people that live in the village are also from elsewhere in France and they have a similarly difficult time as well and they're not regarded as of the village um so FOMATPLAY: so it's not only a question of being a foreigner it's also just not being from here MARION: yeah absolutely yeah definitely um yeah so I think there's a combination of being a foreigner and not being "jochinois" FOMATPLAY: how do we say it like MARION: *jochinois* FOMATPLAY: *jochinois* I didn't know so when you arrived was the Brexit on already no that was before MARION: no it was before yeah FOMATPLAY: how how did how did you react when you uh learned about Brexit and everything (uncertain) that period MARION: well I think period I I it was a it's been really difficult it's been more challenging here since Brexit because we we decided that we were gonna stay put so we did apply for so we we have FOMATPLAY: permanent residency here MARION: permanent residency but we don't we're not we did not become French citizens so not citizens with residents and it's not as easy as it was and then because of the pandemic as well that exacerbate made things more challenging I think as well because of the difficulties in moving backwards and forwards and so so it's not as easy as it was when we first came FOMATPLAY: do you have friends around you who decided they'd rather go back to UK or and some would just stay and not go back like the two yeah positions MARION: absolutely yeah I think some of the older people who've been here a long time just decided that's it they'll stay completely but then there are other people who's kind of grandchildren that that's a pull back to the UK for them and I think some of them have left because they wanted to have more time with their grandchildren as well FOMATPLAY: and since then do you feel more or less concerned about different European questions or is it something you think about in your daily life because you've been personally uh touched by the Brexit thing or not MARION: I think well we I suppose with with it's been more interesting to look at the you can't help but want to look at what's going on in your home country but the thing is that the UK is really not a place that I'd care to live now because I I just I just I find the level of racism distasteful and so I wouldn't the whole thought of living in a country which is so polarized is would be quite challenging to me now I find the looking at what goes on in terms of the politics within France is is like interesting um I I suppose it's kind of keeping an having a view on seeing what's going on between France and the UK and um the posturing that goes on with politicians and leaders well so called leaders cause they're hardly leading in an honorable fashion at the moment in any from any person's perspective FOMATPLAY: but you still do feel like racism is a bit less in France MARION: there's certain groups that I think have a really hard time in France um because of some of the history like Algerians I think have a really hard time and yet there's quite a strong link um and so so I think there's a there is racism here as well and I think this part of France is more racist because you've got the Marine Le Pen coming from around these parts and she's although she puts on this air of of not being racist now it's her father was an incredibly xenophobic individual and she has inherited his characteristics she puts on a facade for everyone but it's it I would say that to her her upbringing has has means that she's not able to see everyone as human beings FOMATPLAY: do you sometimes fear this kind of position would spread in France or you think it's not possible MARION: I don't know the way that the political system is set up it does seem to ensure that's it it's not likely to happen but you never know it could ups- it things could be upset and and I think there's always the underground current there um because of the the way that the far right behaviour here FOMATPLAY: what what do you think about the way Europe is dealing with migration in general MARION: I don't think it's dealing it with it in a very in a way that's beneficial because I think there's a certain level of migration that is needed because there are certain um roles that local people never want to do and and and so I think there if there needs to be an understanding that we are all human beings together and that everybody has a role to play and it doesn't need to you don't have to be this us and them approach to the world it can be that we recognize each other for the strengths and and the strengths of that that we bring to the to everything um I I just don't I don't think promoting hatred and division is a beneficial way to operate at all ever FOMATPLAY: as a migrant yourself in other countries than in France what has been the the main difficulty you had to face I don't know in France or in Sri Lanka or MARION: it's interesting um it varies because like in Sri Lanka I suppose as the I think colonialism has an incredible part to play among in in wherever you are and there's uh in some of the places where I've worked that kind of being as seen as a white as a white person you are incredibly privileged and people respect you um in Africa that it's there's an undercurrent there as well um and it's very complex that like in Sri Lanka the the more I understand the more I got to know what was going on the less I felt I knew what was going on um it's it's I think that getting to understand exactly the politics what's the people's perspectives on things is very complicated and education has a part to play I think if if multicultural understanding and belief and learning about other people's beliefs has been is helpful but the way people are brought up with us and them that's really difficult to overcome and I don't I don't I haven't ever seen how that has how how how how those barriers are broken down it's it's quite saddening really because if we were able to kind of see that we're all human beings it would be amazing FOMATPLAY: so do you think you will return to your home country one day like for do you think you'll stay here forever even if you can go and come back MARION: um I think it's likely that that we'll stay here yeah I think so unless something happened at where everybody got expelled or something and you never know FOMATPLAY: um did you your your children um did they ever go to school in France MARION: no they didn't no so um my eldest went to school in in Kenya and in in Nepal FOMATPLAY: okay shame so I cannot ask you what you think about the educational system in France perfect um maybe a few last questions in terms of values do you feel here in France there are values with with which you agree or that you have gained or uh thinks that you will never change because they belong to you or in terms of values what would you say is typical to you or to this country MARION: it's interesting that because you think of the um the French motto I I find that quite interesting at times because it it's all to do with you you would imagine that people would be more equal here and and yet when I see how things are it is not an equal society in the in the slightest and so that I that's what I have found fascinating because you that that you you the way that it's promoted as somebody as a country where equality brotherhood um and freedom are intrinsic to every to each and everyone's way of life but it's actually when you it's just it's rhetoric it's not it's I haven't seen the obvious that being obviously the case at all um and it's still a very male dominated society from what I see as well so that even though women do have better more opportunities in some respects it doesn't play out necessarily when you see in a small village it's still incredibly patriarchal in its operation and that I presume I suppose it comes from being a predominantly Catholic country even though people actually aren't very religious any longer although in small villages you see the older folk they still hold those the values of of the Catholic religion I suppose so it's it's a mix it's mixed for me things that I think feel are really important are I suppose I wouldn't have gone into public health without wanting to improve how people from impoverished circumstances can live lead their lives and so education and things like that are incredibly important to me and making sure that girls have equal opportunities because if if you don't educate girls health the health of the family is much less than if if everyone is able to be educated fully so I I I think it's interesting and I think there's more in in the UK there's still more opportunities for women but again women are are have a glass ceiling there and and being different in terms of colour or whether you're Eastern European or Gypsy and Romanian all of those things they all have a player player part and I would love to be able to see where we could all get on together whatever background we come from because I have learnt from the opportunities I've had from living in very many different places that there's always something that you can learn from others and that family orientation I think it's fabulous that taking making sure that you take care of your extended family I think it's incredibly important and I would love to see that more in the UK which has become much more mononuclear in its orientation and don't don't kind of see that extended family network in the same way as in from my the cultural background I come from it's different from other global majority country um communities they still have a sense of extended family I think so things that I feel are important in terms of values are being able to be truthful and honest and active with integrity and and care for those who are around you FOMATPLAY: I I have to ask uh one question also about because you know the general uh theme of theme of uh the project for which I'm working is the freedom of movement in Europe um so did you just think about it when you travel or in Europe to tell yourself oh it's because uh there's no more boundaries in Europe I can do this is it something you're aware about or you you're just used to it you don't think about anymore and MARION: no I do think about it because I suppose it's like we're here in France now and I have freedom to move backwards and forwards to UK much more so than anybody in the UK because they can only come and stay here for a few for a short period of time for example and I suppose if if we decided cause we've got friends who um live in Spain others who live in Portugal and we can go and see them easily enough FOMATPLAY: that's because you have the permanent residency MARION: because I have permanent residency um but if we then decided that we wanted to move to Spain or Portugal we'd have to start all over again so there is that element which I I I find a bit sad really because the retire I would like to be able sometime to think alright we could just shut up the house here and go and stay um with go and stay for longer with our friends down um in Spain or Portugal or something but that's not really very straightforward I don't know how it would be so yeah we do think about it FOMATPLAY: um two short questions for the end uh what would be your own definition of freedom of movement for people I mean MARION: freedom of movement I suppose it was a bit it's prior to Brexit I felt we had freedom of movement and my young my children really find that incredibly important so my youngest feels quite cross that she can't easily move if she wanted to now whereas my eldest because they decided and in fact they decided to move her and her boyfriend moved back to the Netherlands which is where he comes from prior to Brexit so that they would have continued to be able to move freely and she will I expect become a um a Dutch citizen at some point in time so that if they then wanted to move somewhere else in Europe they could FOMATPLAY: so she would change her citizenship especially for that MARION: yeah and I think there's quite a few people who I know that have changed because they've got Irish ancestry so they're they're from they would be British citizens but have then decided to take to look into becoming Irish so that they could move freely so one of my friends who lives now in Spain um she's Irish and she's married to a an English person and and they and I think they got married because so that he would be able to to stay with not have to go through all the palaver it and it made it easier for him to become a resident of Spain if if um he was married to somebody who was Irish FOMATPLAY: one last question um could do you think you would be able to define yourself in a few words MARION: define FOMATPLAY: yeah like who is Marion in general MARION: uh who is Marion in general in terms I suppose I feel a European I also feel as much of myself as a citizen of the world because I've enjoyed travelling so much um not that I do now um but I have so loved the opportunities to continue to learn and experience things from all over the place FOMATPLAY: and above all of what you've said um what would be the main information you would like um people who will watch your interview to recall about your story MARION: I suppose what I is I I suppose being open and and curious about wherever you are so that you can learn more of what's going on and I think that's I that's what I have found um in my adult life being able to visit live in different countries is that be maintaining curiosity FOMATPLAY: is it okay for you if that's the word of the end or if there yeah thank you so much thank you