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FOMATPLAY okay I wanted to ask you something about the freedom of movement that you experienced in Europe. so you were-, you mentioned something at the beginning of the interview. Can you maybe expand on that? MARTA freedom of movement. in what way? FOMATPLAY in terms of reasons um yes it's um.... you mentioned the fact that when Poland joined EU and you had the freedom to, of course, um uh in a way excess a number of different uh yeah... like services but also rights but also uh.... yeah, problems also within the EU. so can you tell us uh what meant to you that? MARTA absolutely everything. I remember; I mean luckily after 2004 I really started travelling because I was ready to start travelling. Before yes we traveled but as students; of course we traveled around the countries that are very similar, that aren't very similar in Central Europe where travelling is a little bit easier because we all speak Slavic languages so even if we don't understand each other well we're able to communicate somehow; and our mentality is is uh more similar; but for me the fact that I can cross the border without being interrogated, without... I don't even have to carry my password anymore; just an ID; ah that's fundamental. I mean that that is a miracle that we are, I don't know if; I don't know if everybody in Europe realises that we are facing a miracle: being able to live without the, the borders uh without all this bureaucracy to cross the border without any... until just recently we had to, as Polish people, we had to have a visa; to apply for a visa to to be able to go to America and that was a very complicated process; also quite humiliating because you needed to stand... first you needed to register with the embassy, only in Warsaw. You have to travel to Warsaw before and you have to register yourself, then you have to wait in this huge line in front of the embassy no matter what the weather was like; and then you had to step by step go from one window to another declare that you didn't have any bad intentions, declare that you had a steady job, declare that you didn't want to become a... I don't know, a prostitute, a a terrorist, declare that you absolutely didn't want to stay in America illegally. just to to make that trip, I don't know, to see New York, to see San Francisco which is obvious now. if I want to see Berlin, or maybe London now I know but uh... Madrid, just buy the tickets and go. yeah. and it's accessible in this way, also accessible for me as a Polish person. there is no differentiation anymore. what I am disturbed with still; but this is the fault of of Poland, of Polish government, is that we are not all in the euro zone because in Poland we still have the Polish currency, which um becomes problematic for people from the eurozone when they come to Poland; so it's a problem to exchange money. Of course you don't exchange money at the airport because the rate is horrible. but then to look for an exchange office, it becomes such a such a problem, unnecessary problem, also becomes a problem from the administrative point of view. I worked in a public institution, we did international projects and when you do a European project you have to do double drop also counting, counting the money, counting the rate all the time; and then you lose money in between because the rate is changing; so you get the money in euros but then it's changing to polar swap and then there is the gap. So this is, this is, this is one thing, of course. I know the national currency is connected to the sex of national identity; I know it's not, it's still not the strongest in Poland but maybe it's not the most practical way for the other countries in Europe which have just decided to go for Euro, which has become a very strong and the identity, of course. FOMATPLAY Can you tell me something about um your national versus European identity? is there even um a clash or do you feel it as a... I don't know, belonging to a continuum, maybe, of experiences and identities? MARTA well, that's a very complex question for uh; for a discussion that last days... that's why I wrote my doctorate also about this relationship between the identity and culture; because I was looking, I was trying to define my identity. I've never been a nationalist, never. And I have maybe never felt the need to be strongly national. I think I would rather believe in a, in a, in this personal individual identity than a national identity unless it's very strong. I don't think Poland has managed to define very strongly its national identity. FOMTPLAY Why is that? MARTA but some people say we lost the time away because we weren't.... in the 19th century it didn't exist for 120 years, then after the war uh... it didn't exist for uh 50 years, right? I mean it existed but it was under uh communism so we cannot speak about a natural identity, national identity because it was very, well, very strongly profound. So we started to rebuild the identity only after 89; 30 years to build. I mean, look at you here in Naples other Neapolitan people can tell their story back to, I don't know, 16th century; My family in 17th, 16th century lived in this building. And they can show you which building. My family, all my grandparents, came to Venice after the second World War. from 4 different places, absolutely different places in Poland; or not anymore in Poland because the, the, the, the orders changed. the best thing they uh... FOMATPLAY where did they come from? MARTA my, one of my grandmothers um came from uh , which is now in [Bielorussia]. It used to be in Poland but when they moved the borders after the Second World War it became [Bielorussia] so it became immediately inaccessible for her because you need a visa and the tombs of her, of her family are still there. so imagine... um my grandfather came from the vicinity of Warsaw; he emigrated to find a job, to find a home. hmm the other one came from South-Eastern Poland. through the concentration camps in and the, the and the, the second grandmother came from, from the region around the Gdansk so she was the the closest one but not from the city; because the city was . So how can you build a strong identity with scattered memories and scattered experience? and I'm not the only person. I mean, most of Polish people have this kind of experience and how to build a strong identity without the sense of continuity. so we have been doing this this job for 30 years, it's absolutely not enough. and you can see when you observe Poland a little bit more closely you will see the struggles; or maybe the maybe we should go this way, or maybe we should go this way, or maybe this way.... we're still looking for something to hold on to FOMATPLAY is there anything that you miss badly about Poland? And also going back to what you were saying about Europe, so as a as an institution let's say, or as a common identity so what are your feelings, opinions uh, perceptions about what Europe is nowadays? MARTA I mean... I've, I've done European projects as a professional. I did this coordinated, this four and a half year long European project with Creative Europe with 11 partners; my scholarship is also Erasmus plus so 3 times in Berlin and here in uh Napoli. I had a contact with this European Union um.... narration of what the European is and what we should believe it is but um... all in all I think on this administrative level we have no borders, we have eurozone, we have different international agreements that make things easy for us; uh and this is good. um but as on the national level I don't think the European integration exists. it's still it's based on the relations between countries are very strong and are still based on stereotypes. some nations get things for granted just because they are those nations and not others. um and uh maybe maybe it's because that this some nations have a very strong national identity. and it's good it's good to have a strong national identity. I mean, if we all become globalized what's the point? FOMATPLAY what kind of nations are you referring to? MARTA um.... I think, I think all the nations that uh in the Europe have always been cherished. I mean you're at the uh university that talks a lot about post-colonialism. I think it's very much connected to this imperial position of countries. We in Poland, we've been colonized but we never colonized anybody so... luckily; but we don't have the sense of dominance over someone else. I don't think so. so for me it's something strange, something that I don't understand. Also I've always um.... here in Naples, for example, what's, what's shocking to me um is this social hierarchy that is so strong between so the poor and the rich; the well established and lots of well established um people. It come from a nation that was leveled to to one line for, for many years after, after the war we were just one class. So... to me all all those hierarchies are very difficult to understand; to find myself because the sense of freedom from me means that I can feel free as me; no matter my education, no matter my, my name, my nationality, whenever I go. And it's a nice myth that maybe European administration wants to build with all the documents and beautiful descriptions of what Europe is but in fact I don't think it works yet. And maybe, maybe um... typical; I'm being typical Polish: very skeptical pessimistic but I don't think it's possible that we are all so beautifully integrated because after all the hierarchy, strong hierarchy success between the nations but also within within particular countries. you've been there so you understand it perfectly. FOMATPLAY mhm how would you feel if um your rights as a EU citizen were removed? how would you feel if your rights... MARTA if my rights were removed? FOMATPLAY yes. or taken away? MARTA my rights as a European citizen, meaning? FOMATPLAY the freedom of movement, of expression... MARTA um well, you can just go back in time; Two years ago. I mean, not that any of our rights were removed because it was emergency; I'm referring to Covid and to, to lockdowns. but we were limited and that gave me... that, that made me think many times what would happen if we; if it was a permanent situation, it would have been a distaster. absolutely. but my parents, my grandparents live like this. because they couldn't walk around. only my mother is telling now, saying now that she has this period of uh retirement short period of retirement to make up for all the years she has to make up in 10/20 years for all the time that she had been deprived of this, this right to move around; to to develop the curiosity to to to broaden her Horizons, you know? so I think it would be a disaster for me. was this.... if you ask me there was a beautiful project um uh done by a Polish artist uh Katarina Krakovac in Barcelona; she's a sound artist and she asked uh many people to record and send to her this short recording of one most important word that represents the most important value to you; and then she composed this sound, sound installation in Barcelona from all the recordings that she obtained; and my word was freedom. And freedom to me is... yes is... I mean, if anybody takes away my freedom I can as well you know stop living. what's the sense? FOMATPLAY hmm wonderful! uh what do you think of Brexit? I think we're approaching the end of the interval. MARTA I'm not so much connected with the United Kingdom and if they make this choice, this... I... this is my biggest fear. that uh one day when Poland decides to make this exit out of the European Union, that would be suicide. FOMATPLAY is it plausible? as an option? MARTA well, if you make it up random and if you're lucky enough maybe if you were convincing enough I mean there are... Poland is divided half and half and it's been reflected in the elections: both the presidential elections and the governmental elections; it was almost 50-50. there was 1% of difference in the presidential election so we're balancing on this very thin line and if the skeptics of the European Union are lucky enough maybe it might be the case that in the referendum this 1 or 2 per cent will decide. that would be, that wouldn't, wouldn't be I... yeah things are happening but uh we didn't believe what happened but... maybe, I hope not. FOMATPLAY mhm. And do you think that the age factor plays a role in this? MARTA No, unfortunately no. FOMATPLAY wow. MARTA they have been studying it and it doesn't. It depends the difference depends on... I was um... um context of the city and not city. and just that predominantly, predominantly. Because people in the cities have different needs than people in the countryside. and in part is not enough because there are a lot of rul-, rural areas, areas that are still inhabited by many people and voters who have absolutely different needs; and those who inhabit the cities and different ethnicities. FOMATPLAY very interesting but also scary. MARTA I mean, yeah. well... it depends which options you're representing. FOMATPLAY very true. um I think we can move on to the final part of the interview. So now I ask you questions but very short ones, yeah. So you can um answer very short and briefly like a sentence or a word. yeah? so uh define freedom of movement in one sentence. MARTA hmm lack of borders. FOMATPLAY hmm okay how would you sum up your freedom of movement experiences across the EU so far? MARTA how would I define? FOMATPLAY sorry how would you sum up or define me your freedom of movement experiences? MARTA I mean I... I didn't really feel the limits; not that I remember. FOMATPLAY okay um how would you feel. how would you feel if your freedom of movement was removed? MARTA the worst disaster. FOMATPLAY where's home and where do you feel you belong? MARTA I belong, my home is where I am happy. FOMATPLAY okay. uh what do you miss the most uh of your home country? MARTA well I miss people like left behind, because they can come here with me. FOMATPLAY mhm and how do you feel in your host country? how do you feel in your host country, Italy? MARTA I feel wonderful. I feel I'm a better person and I... I've never been happpier than here. FOMATPLAY that's very nice to hear, wonderful! ah would you take the same decisions today, why? MARTA because I don't regret anything. FOMATPLAY wonderful! and who are you? could you define yourself using three or four words? MARTA oh my God! um free, independent, um woman. most of all I'm an artist fascinated with art. FOMATPLAY amazing! thank you Marta, very much. grazie. yes uh let's switch switch uh.. FOMATPLAY Marta can you tell us something about your journey so what brought you here in Italy and Naples of course? FOMATPLAY uh what brought me here? uh I've been always fascinated with Italy but er particularly this region. Napoli, the, the the Gulf of Napoli with uh its nature. for many years I've been coming here as a tourist, and then er at some point being a tourist no longer satisfied me. I didn't want to be a tourist anymore I wanted to feel integrated as part of the city which fascinated me so much. and so my doctorate, the studies, gave me the opportunity to apply for scholarship and uh gave me an opportunity to have, take scholarship twice; uh to uh establish a collaboration, professional collaboration with two different institutions that um work within an area that I specialise in with this country in arts. And so... finally I was able to spend nine months altogether here working with, in my opinion, the best institutions of art. FOMATPLAY which was? MARTA first uh I did five months with Fondazione Morra, in Naples. Casa Morra uh in Materdei. I worked uh at the uh in the archives, and then I spent uh four months with Museo Madre working uh with uh the then director, Artistic Director Director Kathryn Weir on a huge fantastic exhibition of . and I was invited to the uh to do curatorial research for Kathryn Weir, who was the curator of the exhibition. FOMATPLAY wow! was this process easy for you? or was it difficult? MARTA um easy and difficult. I mean if it hadn't been easy, it wouldn't have been so challenging and so satisfying; it would have meant that the institutions didn't offer me enough of a challenge and this kind of scholarship is meant to give you, give you a little bit extra; to, to give you the opportunity to learn to to develop and me having had 15 years experience in arts, in curating, in in managing arts that the level had to be a little bit higher and I think I've been challenged a lot, also linguistically because I had to find myself in an Italian context. um but also of course each institution has its own procedures, which has its own ways, which is always very interesting to me as, as I've studied, I've researched institutions the way they work; not only as far as the program goes but also as far as organisational administration goes. This is fascinating for me so everything new everything uh uh fresh challenging so it's very fascinating. FOMATPLAY hmm hmm and going back to this Italian context in terms of, for instance, uh the culture that was welcoming or not welcoming you; what kind of the feelings did you have when you uh arrived? did you feel some sort of resistance or some sort of...? MARTA here in Napoli I believe I, I haven't felt any resistance at all. ever. FOMATPLAY wonderful! MARTA and um in comparison, I've I've travelled a lot and um being a Polish person it means that not all the doors are immediately open for you because you come from Eastern Europe. You come with this heavy luggage of communism, you come from behind the Iron Curtain; probably some European countries believe that it still exists and uh it stigmatizes you, stigmatizes you because also because of the sort of migration from Poland that exists. people migrate from Poland to do jobs at a particular level, not scientific jobs, not maybe intellectual jobs, but rather physical jobs so this, this is a challenge for a person who, who represents another area of specialisation; not necessarily the the construction works area for our house services but um... apart from different minor faux pas that sometimes, you know, come out from the mouth of some people unconsciously. FOMATPLAY can you tell us more about this? MARTA well I guess the first reaction, but this is it's not only in Italy, it's everywhere. um is this surprise: oh you are from Poland? and well I know a Polish person. I have a, I have a cleaning lady from Poland and it's very nice but uh after some time, after a couple of years it occured to me that these are the lens, this is the perspective through which the people from, from Western Europe perceive this. just a week ago; and I'll tell you this anecdote; I went to um Bosco di Capodimonte to read a book because I had some free time. And I came across the, the guards of the Bosco and uh we had a little chat because, well, they were looking at me in a strange way me coming from Poland whenever anybody's looking at me in a strange way I, I think I'm doing something wrong so I said "am I doing something; I might trespassing.." no, no, no we were just looking at you in action" and of course here everybody's very friendly, they ask me immediately where I'm from and obviously they categorize me as Ukrainian or Russian because I'm blonde so the Polish is the third sort of go to; and "oh, okay. well, have a good time" and and then the, the elder guard, I think it was about 60- 70 approached me in a very nice way and told me "oh you're from Poland what do you do here? um do you have a job?" in a very careful way and I said "oh yes or no because my job is not fixed" "but what do you do?"; "well, I work in the arts" hmm "well because I've been looking for a person to take care of my house. I need someone to clean my house. and I thought you were from Poland and maybe if you were looking for a job". and then I said "you know what? not all the Polish people look for a cleaning drop". he didn't do it to offend me, that's the point. the point is that the perception of Polish people is like this: they take care of elderly people, they do construction works. I've had many, many examples of this kind of remarks. "oh yeah I know a cleaning lady from Poland" and for you. FOMATPLAY yeah. and how uh does that make you feel? MARTA lt makes me feel ashamed mmm of, of, of the kind of image that has been built of Poland; of Poland as an inferior country. maybe it's the... maybe it's the problem of Polish people; maybe not enough Polish intellectual emingrates but I don't think so; because Polish and intellectuals, are intellectual emigrates as well; and also it happens to Polish intellectuals that they are being perceived in this very patronizing way. I have this wonderful example of my professor who used to teach at a university in Germany and every time he said, he introduced himself as a professor everybody was so surprised. "you're from Poland and you're a professor hmm congratulations" and after some time he was so fed up with these remarks that he started answering "yes, I'm a professor but being from Poland after work I steal cars" ha ha ha ha yeah. I mean uh this is a kind, a little bit a neapolitan way turn something that is a little bit painful or not nice into a joke, into a very ironic joke, so... FOMATPLAY do you have your own coping strategies to dismantle this kind of stereotypes? MARTA well I do my best to represent myself and my country. but uh every time I... it became a little bit of a problem because I... as I said I I've travelled a lot er first as a tourist then er my job also involved travelling a lot and uh... at first I didn't have a problem, I mean with all the enthusiasm uh in Poland we entered European Union in 2004; everything was opened and I believed in this integration between the countries in Europe and uh... that's why whenever anybody asks me "where are you from?" "from Poland" and I don't see any problem with that. But having observed the reactions in the comments after many, many years now that I am aware of all the stereotypes that are so strong this question "where are you from?" becomes for me a little bit of a problem; and because I don't, I no longer want to admit that I am from... for many reasons, but also to avoid those kinds of comments that... "okay, oh I I have a cleaning lady", "I have a I have a security guard from Poland", but... so my coping strategy has being developed but I am at this point that I can face this kind of comment and give a very strong answer; like I said to this person in Bosco di Capodimonte: "look, not every Polish person does clean for a job" FOMATPLAY what was his reaction to this? MARTA no, he was apologizing to me. he didn't want to offend me anything so this, this stereotype is so strong, so strong and so rooted in the mentality of Western European countries and their representative inhabitants that they don't even realise that they are hurting, offending me. I mean, not that I have no respect for all those professions that I talked about but uh in the mentality of the Western European people there are no other jobs that the Polish people can do. That's why also for me professionally it's not so easy to climb the ladder because my start is not as comfortable as, for example, the start of a French person. Enough to say "I'm French" and all the doors are open. enough to say "I'm Polish" hmm FOMATPLAY so where do you think these stereotypes come from? MARTA uh... well I guess uh everyday life. I mean, if you are in the streets people have contact with other people and a lot of other people do the jobs that they do. I mean, now it's such a shame being in in Germany in, in, in, in, in in Berlin, especially, hearing, overhearing Polish language among the homeless people, among the, the, the, the ugliest homeless people in the street. I mean, this is also the fault of the immigrants. They are working on the opinion, and they do not take any responsibility. but also of course I mean that the kind of migration that uh that we're facing the kind of migration that is that uh encompasses certain kinds of professions and not other kinds because it's difficult for a Polish person with the first language as Polish. that is absolutely unuseful for any other countries because nobody else is exposed but us and it's a complicated language. so also linguistically speaking I think it's easier to find simpler jobs. that's my point of view. I don't know. FOMATPLAY do you think that the media have a responsibility in constructing and perpetuating this very stagnant representations of Polish people? MARTA No. if I would blame media for every single, every evil that exists in the world... I know that there are certain tendencies in the media to show Poland as inferior. I um. I have been taking these lessons of German with a teacher who always prepares to me a couple of articles from German media also sometimes considered concerning Poland. And I see very often this patronizing tendency, okay. the polish that that they don't understand the world as well as we do because they've been maltreated for many years and they're still underdeveloped but also of course uh now the image of Poland is not very positive and progressive, let's say; so, it's, I mean... we weren't to blame too. mhm I'm saying we were...; let's say I'm proud of this that I have a passport. I'm representing the country too. so it's complex. I mean, you cannot blame the media or, or anybody in particular because everybody's working on a stereotype. FOMATPLAY okay I wanted to go back to the linguistic barriers that you encountered when you arrived. Can you tell us more about your experiences in relation to the language that-; the new language that you have to learn in order to integrate? FOMATPLAY I learnt a little bit of Italian a few years ago; maybe 10 maybe more; just out of pleasure because I was coming to Italy very often, almost every year for holidays and I thought it would be nice to be able to communicate, at least at this at this um basic level with the locals; especially, I was going more and more to the south and then it would become complicated to communicate in English and I thought... I found it a little bit snubbish to, to, to, to be requiring everybody to communicate in English with me and I thought "okay, I'll, I'll make the effort and uh if I'm here so often why don't I just bring my respect to to the nation?". So that was um that was the motivation and then I learned the basics uh just to, you know, be able to organize myself around towns. So I, so I had the basics when I came here. So it was easier for me to want to develop the language and that was also the purpose; because this scholarship is not only professional development but also linguistic development and here it's enough to uh, to give a sign that you speak a little bit of Italian and people stop speaking English too; and uh but that's good. But that's the only way to learn, uh to learn language. and uh now I have after almost 2 years. I have many friends and quite a few friends speak to me only, only in Italian. I developed a project with an artist who spoke to me Italian all the time. At first it was challenging but uh now we're communicating quite well so for me it's always something enriching, something that I am always proud of. FOMATPLAY and uh did you learn the language um while attending like a school or by yourself? MARTA I've just had some privare lessons. uh at first we we had this, uh, little group of my best friend and my mother and the three of us er for a year or two, I don't remeber, I don't remember er, had one, once a week attended a lesson, a private lesson with a colleague from work of my friend because the colleague lived in er Italy; she was brought up in Italy so she, she knew the language quite well and she, she was a good teacher and... but it was entertaining and um that's that's how, that's how it all began. and uh now I'm now I'm taking lessons again because I... I uh I found out that uh one thing is to be able to communicate another thing is to be able to communicate correctly. And this is this is what I would like to do. FOMATPLAY and have you perceived that the that knowing the Italian language is uh um an efficient way to get accepted and welcomed in the Italian society? so what kind of linguistic capital do you think that the Italian language has in the in the country? MARTA it's very, it's, it's very important. I mean of course there are nations that understand that it is almost impossible to learn the language like, I don't know the Hungarians; the Polish also have to accept the fact that... well, many Polish people don't accept the fact that the tourists or whoever comes to Poland doesn't speak Polish that's the way it is. So it's not an international language. But here, Italian is not an official European language, right? of communication. Nevertheless um.... it's not that I would have been excluded without Italian in Naples. I don't think so. but I wouldn't have made so many friendships or such; I wouldn't have been able to enter such, in such good relationships and contact with many fantastic people I met without being able to communicate with them in their own language. okay? so I accept the fact that I'm the one who makes mistakes so that they can express themselves better with me. so I also accept it because my priority was to learn, to learn the culture, the character the nature, also the language; so I assumed the role of the listener. Now I'm becoming slowly also the interlocutor but uh that's, that's the way, that's the way it functioned. And it functioned well because also people who I met have been very generous with me to share their impressions, their knowledge about the city; so if I had been only around the community of immigrants, non-Italian speakers, the experience of the city would have been very superficial and this this is not the reason why I came here. I came here to become part of it and that becoming part of it means you have to be able to communicate in Italian. The the next step is to learn the proper term. ha ha ha ha ha ha. but first I have to master it. FOMATAPLAY so do you feel satisfied with the uh social network that you established in Naples? MARTA absolutely. people have been very generous with me; very open, very generous, very welcoming. I have established a network stronger and more exciting, more interesting, more fascinating than in my own city where I lived for 14 years. Also because the character, the personalities are different. FOMATPLAY what about them? MARTA people are willing to share. people.... if, if you, if you are receptive, if you are open enough to ask they they will share their world with you; at least the people I met. so um I feel very welcome here; I feel very good. I, I, I really... after not even two years I, I really feel accepted. Even though sometimes happens that people are offering me a kind of job as a polish person but uh... among my friends, among many other people I meet; because I'm meeting people all the time; there is this warmth; there is this, this openness. not to idealize Neapolitan people because they can be very unpleasant, as everybody does. but uh all in all I feel I feel absolutely at home here. FOMATPLAY mhm. so you didn't have to make um an active effort to uh make friends; was it like a spontaneous process or did you actively um, I don't know, maybe join the something? the chorus or uh... MARTA I don't, I don't do that. As you, as you as you heard I don't even do group lessons of a language. I... my luck was that I came here and to be installed within institutions; so my first contact persons where the people who worked in those institutions. The other side of the luck is that I work in the arts; this is a very international community, very open community, very flexible community, so to say. It means that there are no rigid, strict rules of behaviour because this world needs to be open all the time and needs to be fluctuating, needs to be spontaneous. that's why it's easier within the world of arts and culture to um establish this, this, this network; because it's based on the network. Not just professional. first thing professional but then here it happens that it becomes also very personal.