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FOMATPLAY okay. So thank you Viktoriya for being here. We're happy to interview you. The first question I want to ask you is to tell us about your journey. So, what brought you here? VIKTORIYA uh well... I'm originally was originally... I was born in Russia, in the south of Russia, in Bromwich. Then I did one one exchange in America. After this moved to Moscow because it was, like, more prestigious and everything. And after studying, like, I always knew after America that I would emigrate and in knew that it would probably be Europe so... because the political context in Russia was really unstable and I was working as a journalist for many years; actually and in I understood that it was getting too dangerous. So I was, like, torn in between wanting to, like, stay and keep going forward with these and agreeing that this is going to be my whole life or trying to find some other more human way to exist. So after that, I quit journalism. I went to cultural management, cultural production and I worked in British and American embassies in a cultural production. And even our culture when it started getting canceled for political reasons-; so, that's when I understood that I needed to migrate. First I moved to Greece for a bit. Then, from Greece, after some time, I arrived to Naples with my friend and I decided to stay here. So I came back to Russia, studied Italian in, like, seven months together. To get the paperwork needed; because it was the easiest way to transfer, as a Russian was-; well, apart from, I guess, getting committed to each... was not really... I don't think it was a great way. So, I wanted to do it through the academic field so I applied to studying in university fo the things that I had already been working for many years for the cultural management. And that's how I went to Naples. That's how I used to Italy. FOMATPLAY Why did you opt for Europe instead of, for instance, the States? VIKTORIYA well um... Actually when I left the States I even took the ACTs I couldn enroll into university and I had really high score. But culturally America didn't seem-; like, it didn't seem like as a match to me because, I guess, from outside of Europe it looks like Europe has stronger humanistic values, protecting the minorities, that it's all about the human, importance of human life. So, yeah, so I wanted to move to Europe because of this. In Russia I was really torn at what I was seeing politically and in terms of discrimination against the firends, against the colleagues. So, to me, it seemed that Europe was a sure way-; obviously, when you compare to something really bad... So, yeah. That's why it was Europe. FOMATPLAY where your expectations met or not really when you can came here? VIKTORIYA um... yes and no, I think. I mean, we do tend to idealize what... I think also in America I understood that we idealize America and what... while I was living there. So I wouldn't say that I was idealizing a lot of things before moving to Europe. But I think the main part for me was feeling safe, like physically safe. And this for sure is a big thing; like I feel this on a daily basis. Like, I'm not afraid of police, it's a big thing, but I also understand that my experience in Europe is really priviledged considering that I am white, european-looking. Because when I go to [Ufficio Immigrazione] to take the [permesso] and I am in line with people from Africa, people from other countries, I really see the huge difference, even in how the workers act the me and with people who stand next to me. so I understand that it's really... the experience might be a bit more positive because of how I look. FOMATPLAY can you tell us more about this aspect? VIKTORIYA well, it's actually a really interesting aspect, I think. Because being a slavic woman you also end up being objectified a lot, in this sense. Because there is stereotype that a slavic woman is a trophee wife or, like, the glorified escort or whatever. So, there's also a downside to it because once you move, for example, try to um... grow somehow in the professional field in Italy, especially, even if you have a lot of experience you will still be seen as like pretty Russian girl, mostly. Like you are less likely to be considered serious, I would say. um... which also brings to like why when you go to the police or, I don't know, any kind of immigration officers they are more open to you, I would say, because... especially, obviously, the male staff like the way to um.. you know? pass without waiting in line or there and they see it happen.. so it's like also for others. For example, also both Ukrainian and Russian girls that would send to in line. So you understand that this is a privilege but you understand that there's any... like it really is not such a great privilege because it also goes with the people not really seeing you for, like, a human because it's still objectifying in some sense. FOMATPLAY and did you ever had to face any bureaucratic obstacle-; obstacles while being in Europe or in the States? VIKTORIYA Yeah, I mean, a lot. Well I obviously don't have a lot to compare with considered that I've never been born in another country. But for sure when I was about to move to Europe my decision on what migration path I pick... and it was, once again, it was conscious decision. When I was choosing to move to Europe it wasn't like okay I go, maybe have some fun experience for two years then I come back. It was for me, like, an official decision that ...okay, I'm migrating right now, obviously, and I'm migrating for political reasons and for reasons that are yet not um... confirmed by other countries. Because it was all before the war and it has all been happening for a really, really long time in Russia. That it would come to something bad is just... Once you wouldn't move out outside of Russia and you would come to Europe also with this expectation, like, okay, I've been going to protests my whole life. I have a lot of colleagues, you know? in jail. I have a lot of friends that are under house arrest and then you come to Europe and they're like are you from Russia, it's like Putin is awesome, you were doing great. And it's really like um... you kind of.. it's like you ran away from an aggressor, from abuse and then you hear people saying he's like a good guy, you know? It's an awful thing to say but I don't want war to happen. A lot of people in Russia wow if people saw him for what he is. it took years, you know? for leaving migration hearing this. That you know? that we come from a great country, I would say. So... So, yeah, obviously bureaucracy to me it's not easy to do because there is a lot more paper work than it will be if I would come, let's say from, America, for example. Or from Eastern Eruope. So there are a lot of programs, grounds that to Russians, requirements of the financial side to prove that you have enough finances fo this. So yeah that was actually... I think that when I just did it, like, seven years ago it was really hard to get all of this. Because there was no open information. whatsoever, about the amount of paperwork. So I've been gathering of the documents for almost a year before moving. Then until the very last moment I still didn't know if it would work or if it would be enough because you never know. Also here's where Italian bureaucracy, let's say, so you never know if it's gonna be enough. So yeah, it was hard and because I was on student residence for almost six years. It was actually.... Do I had to renew the residence every year, the [permesso]. So... and so it's kind of towards service, you send out all the paperwork for the [permesso] and... according to the law, it's supposed to take one month and after they give it to you. But, obviously, it takes like seven months, eight months. So, by the time they give you out the receipt that is supposed to work for a year but obviously turns out in the next 3- 4 months, you are already supposed to restart all the process again the next 2 months. So you actually have 2 months of being able to travel around European Union or get any kind of advantage that comes with you being European resident. So that was, I think, the hardest part. I was always really mobile around Europe before moving here because of... I had open visas and everything. But now with all the paperwork, I think ,in the last six months I've traveled only once around Europe. So now... and it's funny. Because once you move you think wow! it's Europe with open borders, you know? and everything but in the end you're just stuck in this loop over and over. FOMATPLAY but because of your Russian passport? VIKTORIYA because of, No. because of the paperwork that comes when, for example, if you want to be a student. Now with a Russian passport... Actually, I changed not so long ago to... I got the partnership [permesso]. It's actually the thing that was common for same gender couples and yeah. They changed the law two years ago so actually now the be immigrants also can do this. And so I did this; so technically you get like a family residence without having to get married, whatever. And this made everything a bit easier. But there was also the paperwork removed and was this thing that... like, now obviously with the political situation, for example, I cannot come back to Russia because I used to be a journalist and then they were like hmm... how do you call it? like the government and the secret services were harassing my family also... so we kind of decided that it wouldn't be the safest option. so for this I haven't been there for some time. When I went to change the [permesso] to the family one, my passport was supposed to run out in like 8 months or so. So according to the Italian law, I sent out the documents just in time by the norms but because of the state of bureaucracy goes longer, it went on longer than expected. So we arrived to this point where we come to the office and they're like okay your passport turns out in months; because they kept rescheduling the date where I'm supposed to meet them, and now we cannot do anything. So you either have to go to the embassy-; and in the embassy, the Russian embassy has the... they need to register to do something with your passport, like six months in advance. sometimes a year because of the sanctions. They sent out a lot of figures out and the period has also completely changed. So, this was not an option because once I would get the passport through the embassy then it would be... once I will get the passport but the thing that's the [questura] needed, I wouldn't be able to register for permits so they were like well go to Russia and then... To Russia we cannot go because of this and they're like well, we cannot do anything. And that's... like the whole point actually I think that's what you there's no... for now there's no representation in Europe of Russian that, for example, ran away or for people who are safe to come back because... uh we cannot solve the documental staff really easily, we cannot enter the country... like we can, but there's not a risk and u...h there are no representative offices of oppositional Russia, for example, in Italy. So for now you have to search for like long ways around. In the future, possibly, I don't know, there might be some groups that are taking care of these because there's someone to talk about creating some kind um... like, for example in Belarus, because they have a different situation where they have a president that uh... is illegitimate, for example, in Europe. So, they have no offices of the public figure that is considered legitimate. So, for example, if you're an oppositioner from Belarus you can go to the this office that is in each European capital in um... with Russian one, it doesn't exist yet. I don't know. Maybe it will be in the future. So right now, almost two years after the war has started, there still this problem and it's, I think, it really reflects what, what I was talking about before. That it also reflects how in Europe for many years there was this kind of flirtation with Putin because we are two years after the war and still we kind of don't confirm the rights for, you know? people who run away to exist, so... FOMATPLAY Are you able to apply for political asylum if you wanted to? VIKTORIYA well... it was my conscious decision not to. Long time ago. Well, first of all, because I moved long time ago. Second because, obviously, there are frustrations that come with this because if you need to come back really urgently you cannot. to Russia, obviously. Because you're waiting... because it is political asylum. Third and it's a funny thing that a lot of Russian journalists, actually, say the same. I think that someone might need it more than me and it's a paradox because I've seen a lot of Russians in Italy, for example, that never went to protest in Russia. They would move to Italy, start going to anti Putin protests here and they would apply for political asylum. And here there are the journalists and the political actvists who say no, like, I'm sure there's gonna be someone that needs it more, you know? so um... no, it was a conscious choice because I didn't want to create extra problems if something could happen back in Russia and I would have fly back. But also I didn't wanna leave all this victim card, you know? I'm... like I took, I.. uh moved many years in advance so I took many years going to grade here so I want wanted to get residence here as person who has already integrated and not, you know? FOMATPLAY Are you also planning to apply for citizenship once..? VIKTORIYA yeah. FOMATPLAY and would you have to give up your Russian citizenship or? VIKTORIYA no, well... for now in Russia you can have two citizenship. We don't know what's gonna happen in the future but I can have it all for now. FOMATPLAY okay. Going back to what you were saying about this safety in Europe. Well, what else are you experiencing while being here? the positive side but also the negative? VIKTORIYA yeah, well. I think the positive side is... even if I see-; even if I meet people who are racist really being bigots in some sense-; I don't know how politically correct this say-; it is to say this. Or who, like, who are being pretty discriminative. I feel like the whole, compared to Russia, at least to me, or at least I had this feeling the first few years because Italy has changed a lot in the last seven years here; before I had this feeling that even though you might be racist for anti LGBT, for example, you hmm... like... there is this air that it's not really approved of if people say it out loud, at least compared to Russia I had this feeling that there's way more disapproval on this side. So um... I liked that feeding that at least people know that if they want to judge something it is wrong. Like they're not in the place or that they might come off as less educated if they say this thing aloud. I do think that political signals has changed and now people may be more free to say really scary things. This I noticed. So... But before the attack, I had this feeling that at least, for example, with politicians having extramarital affair, they are noticed in corruption, they noticed in harassment cases. They, at least have to respond. They can't just brush it off or ignore it There is this procedure that needs to be respected, connected to public opinion in some way. This is also the dynamics which for Russia would be weird. Because we were doing so many investigations in.... journalists like... you just feed them out into the public and then public creates... but there's no reaction, whatsoever, obviously, from the government or politicians. All this being said, it's, it's interesting to notice this, about sometimes... we saw political changes, also in Europe, like... for example, with Italy becoming more conservative politically. Sometimes you ask if it's really that much of a difference. Because the difference is like still more public reputational, I would say. So it's more the difference of an impression, so... FOMATPLAY besides being objectified, have you ever experienced some other kind of discrimination or hostility when you arrived or even now in everyday life? VIKTORIYA well, first of all I think it's both uh.... like, there's an upside and downside to it, but I don't really look Russian. People most of the time, especially the ones here, they think that I just come from northern Italy. Maybe sometimes Spain, France, whatever. Uh so they, they wanna; they, they feel something they have some... they cannot quite put their mind to it. So.... but obviously they ask where you from. So you answer and there's always this dynamic, this like, this whole coming back to identity because obviously I, I used to, even before the war, not really like the question where are you from? because it's hard for me- Like I have the Russian citizenship. I grew up there but I also lived in America. I also lived in other countries. I've... I wouldn't say that my experience is really typically Russian so it's always like you don't always wanna answer this question. To be put in a box that you need to be put in a box but you need to be put in a box. So um... No, I think um... hmm I think the first few years it wasn't well... the objectification was there, people getting excited that you're from Russia and saying wow communism is awesome, you know? that was also... so like, I would say, projecting the political scene on you. Because, like, if you come from the country that has this huge trauma of communism that actually has never worked through and that's why the worst is also happening. Even a part of this conversation, you knwo? This is also completely different. But big topic about this, I'd say, um... the last few years, for sure. the bank account now. It's kind of it's not prohibited officially but there are a lot of uh.. internal documents that prohibit opening accounts for Russians so.. there's a group of international activists that ran away from Russia and we have centers in different countries, that try to come up with ways to integrate. Because, for example, this thing that you cannot open a bank account in Italy it's actually against the anti-discriminative laws so that's why there's no official circulation about it. And.. SO they won't tell you be straight to your face and we'll just say that we cannot, the system doesn't let us. So, obviously, it creates a lot of extra steps for months for you when you have to connect with anti discrimination association. Then the bank start calling you back. You have to gather all the, you know? documents to prove um... because they say Russians are under sanctions. But there are certain Russians that are the sanctions. Oligarcs, politicians, not like you know? students that run away. so um... for example, this is one of the things that's extremely common. FOMATPLAY okay, so you would maybe label these as administrative hostility or..? VIKTORIYA yeah, I would say that it's... I don't know, it's weird because I can't understand if it's because Italy has a lot of ties with Russian culture somehow or it all gets really distorted. So, for example, when the work has started it was me and actually my friend who was also a former journalist. He had already moved away from Naples. We were the first ones to organize ther anti war protests in Naples and which, together with our Russian friends and also Ukrainian friends who wanted to come. So we started the protests next to the [Consolato russo] in Naples and then we organized a group that was helping the refugees, the Ukranian refugees that were coming to Naples. so um... during the protests there were also, obviously, because the Ukrainian anti war protests are growing, growing, growing and the Russians not as many in Naples. So I would go to the protest and there would be a small group of Russians doing that or protesting, in the part of a Ukranian, Ukrainian protest. And it would always be an interesting dynamics because sometimes it would be nice and they would say like you know? it's not your fault. We're not against, we are sympathetic. And then they would start saying something like but we also know that Putin had no other choice and all this. So it was like, some, like, the time you grow to be really aware of support you kind of grow. Even to push the support away because you're afraid of all this thing that will come after the battle, you know? so um... we had, in the protest group had some cases. The car that one guy brought from Russia would get destroyed, for example. But this... you would never know if it was made by Neapolitans or by some more ethical Ukranians. Because it's also justified that, you know? they had a lot of frustration obviously. So... you know? we never took it to the police or anything so there would be dynamics like these. Um... I think, I think it was hard; probably only the first year of the war because I felt that a lot of Italians that were supporting Putin up to the point they kind of felt now that they would be marginalized too much to support out loud. So they would as aggressively start saying about how Russians are all terrorits and alll of that. So, for example, as a Russian, I would hear at parties and most of the times it would be from, you know? Neapolitans, for example, that hadn't finished university yet or, you know? that have not really evolved in the social life. so it would be, like, just... you would say really ignorant thing to look smart and this would be also the dynamics, sometimes. I would meet even the realtives of my partners, considering they have known me for many years. So um... I would say that, yeah, like for the first year it was just really unstable and people just, you know? let it go. so... FOMATPLAY and how do you think the situation is now? has it improved? VIKTORIYA I don't think it's improved. I think I got used to it a little bit more. I think people, usually uneducated people, who are eager to talk about, you know? That there is a whole nation of terrorists. They also want to change topic because ususallly those are people who don't know the context really well so, you know? obviously they don't talk about those things anymore. So, yeah. I think administratively it hasn't changed. I think that until there's some kind of uh representation, um... it's not gonna get easier. I think it's gonna get worse for now, yeah. FOMATPLAY why so? VIKTORIYA um well... first, for sure, because the war is gonna be going on for a long time. Then, if... whatever happens to Putin, it's not gonna get better, for sure, straight away. I think it's gonna get worse. But we are already talking about the levels of collapse of the Soviet Union or, you know? it's just gonna be something that's gonna take years. it's gonna take it. And I think also... I know, I feel there's still.. Europe hasn't made up how much they can help Ukraine so it is... like it keeps dragging on. So, like they keep sanctioning a lot of... they keep penalizing a lot of people that run away. But they are not being stern enough with the people that have the power and the money in the war, the oligarchs, the politicians. Like for them the door is still open. So it keeps going on for a long time and I really feel like many, that many European political parties use this Russia-Ukraine question to their advantage in the elections. So I, working as a journalist I met... it was actually part of my material that I still haven't published. That there are actually a lot of ties between some artists in Italy or in France to.. pro Putin movement in Russia so.. like, it still, somehow, exists after two years of the war. so yeah... and it's just really scary that it's acceptable and that's why I think it's just not gonna be a fast decision. FOMATPLAY okay, and maybe going back to the notion of identity, you mentioned something there. Can you maybe tell us how you feel in terms of your personal national identity? VIKTORIYA oh um... this is also like a bigger talk that got even bigger because of the war. Because now. Like Russia... there's not fully ethnicity which is called Russia, you know? Russia is a really big country and has like um... over a hundred of ethnicities. So many Russians call themselves Russians. They actually do so because they're [cittadini], citizens of Russia and not because they ethnically Russians. My whole life I have been identified as Russian. It was just something that came automatically because you are born there. I never... to you know, the point of moving to Europe would not think about what it means because you're just white skinned and you're Russian if you were born in Russia. But also because, for example, I come from the Southern part which is not far from Ukraine. It was common in the area, but in general it was common in a, like, normal store of Russia to, kind of, hide your roots to stay safe. So um... for example, I don't even know my [bisnonni]. I don't even know my great-grandparents. I don't even know where they are from. I don't know their nationality. I understand Ukrainian, I know all of my grandparents understood Ukrainian, but it doesn't mean they were Ukranians. So, this is actually the thing that's really important to understand about Russian identity. There's no, there's no identity. It's there because you grew up there and it was made, like, this historically. Because it was just artificially created. Families requires an identity on purpose so... um... actually my father, just a year before he passed, he started going around searching different archives in different cities; historical archives. And that's what's really common in Russia now, especially in the anti-Putin movement. Is that people go to look for their family history in historical archives and different cities to understand what their roots actually are. My mom did the DNA test a few years ago and they did it for fun. The DNA test is like 70% Slavic and they, used this umbrella of Slavicness like Ukrainian, Belorussian, Russian; like all the republics. And then after the war started. So obviously because the question of identity became more... brought out of hurt with it. Became more painful so they started dealing with the data. She checked out again and it was written like out of the 70% slavic, 67% was, like, central Ukraine. So... I don't know. I guess once the war is over we need to search for the archives in there so um... so yeah, I've been, I have identified myself as Russian my whole life but it also has been because historically it was just made. So... you're Russian because you were born in Russia. I think... that's... probably if you ask me this question even in two years my answer may be different not because I don't wanna be Russian but because we were just brought up not to know the tones to identity. Because the government was really afraid of, like, movements so... it was... like, this whole topic of the identity was pressed onto through all the time. FOMATPLAY and do you also feel you have a Neapolitan, Italian slash European identity or? VIKTORIYA I think I surely have a stronger Neapolitan identity. No, it's actually funny because I was always, I was always more concentrated on Spain. I was studying Spanish at university and I always thought that if I would move to Europe it would be Spain. And then, when I came to Naples was completely by chance. So I was living in Greece and I had some Neapolitan friends in there and one of them decided go see his family. and because he was afraid to fly, he decided to go with Vespa from Greece. So, we came here together with a Vespa from Greece in a week and I was always really judgy towards Italy because the people that I met in Russia, they are very into Italy. Those were like... glorifying the concept of northen Italy like expensive cars, expensive fashion, these kind of consumerism way of looking at Italy. Or more, like, beautiful men and beautiful fashion week. So it was like.. to me, it's always seemed to be superficial; well, also are.. it's not superficial but it was always portrayed in the really consumerist way by people that like Italy. so I was never really interested. And then, when I came to Naples, I was really mesmerized and I said okay I want to live here. it wasn't, like, living in Italy, I wanted to live in Naples. So... In Russia I started to work really fast to be able to enroll into university and I think, yeah, I think um... um it has influenced me a lot. I also lived in the northern Italy for over 2 years, two and half. I lived under Bologna, in Modena, a small town. It was really, not really encouraging experience for a foreigner. Actually, also, especially for a Russian because I think they're in a small city. There's Russian girls, for sure. you know? There are housewives that moved after an Italian guy or something. So, yeah. Actually in 2 years and half I don't think I managed to find Italian friends, or other natives. Like, that really didn't work for me. So I think Naples has brought way more things to my identity than northen Italy. FOMATPLAY and what were you mesmerized about when you arrived in Naples? VIKTORIYA well the openness of people. I think the sense of community is really strong. I think... unfortunately in many marginalized areas it's really common uh... because when I talk to my Russian friends that moved to, let's say, Rio De Janeiro or to Glasgow in Scotland, they also say like those areas that are considered really, you know? scary, dangerous. And yet you come and you find the friendliest people there. That's like... they may not have a lot but they are always ready to help you out with something. After moving to Naples I started understanding that I am more southern Russian, myself, than just Russian. Because I really understood. He brought up a lot of southern things as well. So, yeah, I think that was actually the first thing why I decided to move. Is the people. Because I didn't see this openness anywhere else in Italy. I didn't notice it. Well, higher in Italy, I would say. So... that's also-; back then, as for journalist or cultural producer that works always with people to me that was really important. FOMATPLAY hmm... and is there anything that you cannot really put up with in Naples? or something that you don't like? something that..? VIKTORIYA I think. Well, I think in Italian culture, in general, but I think in Naples it's even more exaggerated and that's why sometimes I'm not sure if I'm the right fit to work here if I'm more.. if I would like to work more in an international country. I see more sexism than there is in Russia. in the work environments, for sure. And I think those are the things that really depend on one another. So family boundaries and ageism. I really... the thing that I cannot put up with is why 30 year olds are seen as kids? why they're also seen as kids in the professional area? like, you know, in the work area, for example. Because in Russia, I mean, you start working already from the third year of university if you're doing the [specialistica]. So, I think, from your twenties you are already working. Frist part-time, the 21 is already full-time already. So, by 30 you already have a career. I understand that you will expect to die at 16... so you can die, you know? time schedule there... but, yeah. I think that's... and it's really like the question of chicken on the egg because I think that in many situations in Italy it's really blamed on the young generation. You know? They don't want to do anything. But at the same time I also feel the young generation-; I saw it for myself, you know? Like I was... I also had this idealization of my experience; like, I'm a person with really rich professional backgorund, I moved to Italy, you know? I found a job in here. I would go to job interviews in another-; northen Italy, for example, and I will have already 10 years of experience by the time and they will all try to tell me "look, you have an experience of a 40, 45 year old person we cannot take you on this position because people won't understand" you know? and you feel like you came here to develop and at the same time you have to sit it out for the next four five 10 years to wait so that your age looks more appropriate on the resume because it's not... because your experience is already there. You know? so I felt, for sure... we often, when we would do the university projects I would go to... museums owners, for example. People that work in culture, work with art. and you know? I would do it from the position of students but with the background of already... like, six years working in art and culture. So I already knew the practical side of it and I would call and I will see how they answer to me thinking that I am a student. We were supposed to do a project where we would um... invite different museum owners, to collaborate and I would get a lot of answers like "why would I do it?" like "how can you be useful to me like the students?" it's... like... because we're famous, we're really big. Do you understand that you're talking to the owner of, I don't know, of the archaeological park that is like... I don't know, took some awards two years ago. And I come listening to this and I'm thinking "you really don't know that you're actually talking to a person that has been organizing huge festivals. Bigger than usual in this part". So, it was really interesting to see how me-; like how many.. uh.. how to say it in the right way without hurting? So how many things, actually, the students or the young people face, you know? how many things that they have to ignore. The people say- tell them in all this professional fields while they're not... like while actually they are gate kept from this field on purpose, you know? At the same time I really feel that um... you are not emotionally separated from your family step by step. I feel that it also... I have seen many examples around. Some people that don't want to search for a job at 30 years old. Or they don't want to take on too much responsibility, so... and I understand that, maybe, you know? those people also may seem like they represent the of our generation, in some sense, when the generation is being criticized. Like this whole concept that, you know? Kids do no wrong. Kids cannot do wrong. The norms of when you are supposed to move away from your parents; the norms of when you are with your partner; when you are supposed to have a job. so all of this is really different because the family ties are really strong also. And I don't know if this is much of an influence to this ageism that 30 year olds are seen as kids when they're not. It's like are they being made kids, you know? by the fact that there are no, not a lot of work opportunities for them? or is it because, you know? parents in their 60s don't want to feel emptiness even though they are actually supposed to let go. it's like a really big dynamic that... I mean, I still haven't made my mind about it and I'm not sure. I'm not sure I'll be able to make my mind anyway. um... FOMATPLAY okay something different, maybe, regarding your um... experiences of mobility around Europe or around the globe. Since you've experienced different things, different contexts, can you tell us something about this? and also in relation to Brexit? if you if that has impacted you as an historical moment? VIKTORIYA hmm... Well, I would say the Brexit probably to me was more of an impact because I used to work in the British Council. The Twitter became a department of British embassy in Russia before we got closed by Russian government because of... as an answer to British sanctions. So it did influence me because it was like close to my heart. The whole, you know' the whole area, in general. the whole culture. I think that in Italy it maybe didn't necessarily influence me directly but I think that it did create some president... where countries... like where also different areas in different countries started seeing this as a possibility. because, I think, that the talks about being safe outside of European context; thes talks became way more common and I think that's um... it was kind of a sign of a legal divide. And I think that now all the conflicts happening; not just, you know? Russia Ukraine but also with Palestine and the Israel. Many other-; completely different topics. Even in terms of discrimination I think that this whole idea that we don't wanna be part of Europe or we don't wanna be part of Italy, you know? uh... it became even more, you know? encouraged, somehow, in talks, you know? about what's happening. I... well, to be fair, even before the Brexit, Russian would, Russians would need a different visa to enter Britain. European, like Shengen, European visa would not work for us. I should say that in this sense I don't see a big change. It's more that Europeans got a step closer to the Russian experience, in this sense. But obviously, now, for Russians it's even harder to get the British visa, to enter London I guess. There are some extra steps in paperwork in this sense but in terms of mobility around European Union, I would say that it does mesmerize me how this whole effect that you can move and work in another country without having to, you know? do a lot of paperwork for taxes in your country. Like... to me this is just something unreal. And to me it's unreal that many people take it for granted. Because very often uh... especially the first years, when I just moved from Russia, many people will be like oh I'm gonna go visit Russia. Wait you need the passport to do this! but for this you need the visa! why do you need to do all those things? so, obviousl,y this would be just the people that, you know? travel all around to Europe with a driver's license, somehow, and it is just... it was so weird to me that this a thing that is a normality but also that times brings to some kind of beurocratic confrontism. more so because you're used-; not you, but people, when they say, you understand that they see it because they got so used to this European ability that they traveled only around Europe, let's say. When you come especially from an Asian country, you know? this really seems like progress of humanity, somehow. and it does seem like this. But with the whole conflict happening, I don't know if it works. I don't know... like, I don't know if it works as an idea, if... like, I moved thinking that, you know? Europe is this big territory that is protecting the dignity of being human. And then from inside of Europe you look at what is happening on the outside, in being part of the outside. When you're being inside the European Union and see everything happening in the world um like... being inside the European Union and knowing what's really like, for example, happening in Russia um.. you um sometimes start feeling that this big territory that was all about the dignity of humans, helping out democracy or equal opportunities uh.. whilst being a part of another country, into another culture that actually started the aggression in the conflict. You start questioning if it is really true. Or to which extent it is true. Because you understand that there are diplomatic boundaries, in some sense. But also priviledges that has sometimes... you stopped wondering if they are happening because the other countries are on the outside, you know? so if it's, like, the system that reproduces itself and if the system is an idea with everything happening in the world, is it able to solve those things? that won't to solve those things, you know? FOMATPLAY yes. Something, maybe ,about your language learning path. So how has it been, for instance, with Italian or other languages that you have learned? VIKTORIYA well, Initially, obviously before I moved to Europe, I already knew English really well. By Russian standards that was... really, really well because that's why I had the grant where I lived in America for one year. And I've been also studying Spanish and German before I decided to move to Europe. So I already had this background of understanding how languages work. So, when I decided to move to Italy I was studyingcompletely by myself um.. because I was in tight schedules, I didn't have a lot of money for the tutor and I studied it by myself up to level B1 so that I could enroll to university. The first... um, well... the first year was for sure really hard because I'm not... like, I was going to the course that was fully in Italian, with Italian students and um... it just... it was hard to-; not just even credit for exams but it was hard just to navigate the system in the university because there were no foreign students, support department like, you know... I would just start going to lectures and that's all. It was expected that I know how exams work, I know how registration and [segreteria] works. Like... I didn't know any of this because its system is completely different from Russia, is completely different from America, when I stayed in America so... I think the worst part in language was not just studying, but actually the whole fact that no one understands it. You really need a lot of time to understand the structure of how daily things work. A lot of problems. For example, if you study technical sciences like algebra, mathematics, um... even the way you write down equations sometimes may be be different. I mean, I already saw it in America that it was a bit different how you mark some, you know? things in different languages. So that was hard um... I... also it was especially difficult because Neapolitan language goes into the scene straight away. It feels completely different at first. And the first two years I was living in Forcella, within the area that's... is speaking mostly Neapolitan, not in Italian. So I had to study this as well. And I should say that, well, it got resolved kind of by itself because... well, I was pushing myself really hard to learn Italian. I had this rule that I would never ever speak English to Italians. So if I'm not able to explain myself in Italian I'm not able to explain myself. This really helped me because some of my Russian friends that moved here, like, the same amount of time ago that I did, but they moved to their partners, let's say. For example they... some of them still don't speak Italian much because they would talk to Russians, not Italians. So this was a really harsh rule but it helped. um... I did start now after 7 years, I'm trying to get the CILS certificate. it's the International Università di Siena certificate. Of C2 level. Just so that they have it because... I actually with my Italian... whilst most of the Italians I met on a daily basis they are very encouraging, they are very supportive of how I speak, that my mistakes not that bad. But in the professional field as a woman and a foreigner with a big experience, I was actually nullied for my Italian by my own colleagues. So I thought, when I was working in journalism. I straight away knew that it was because they were intimidated that I have a lot of experience, international experience compared to them. So I actually was in a lot of situations, for example, at the work meetings I start speaking in Italian and I would get interrupted over and over, like no. here you put the-; here you put this and here you put it. So it was more like kind of trying to bring you down so that you cannot bring your idea to its point because they were scared that maybe I would get promoted. I once applied to a job, also, in some really famous agency in Naples and then I found out that the guy that was interviewing for the job was actually, like, a common friend. When he found out that I was applying for a team... he saw the CV, he saw that I had a lot of experience compared to him. And the job was actually the native English speaker, or the fluency in English. Because you're supposed to work in English and he said yeah, yeah, but I don't think we can accept you because you're not native Italian speaker. it was actually just because-; later on he told me, like, it's somebody that, well, you know? but I'm gonna take personal as the one who has more experience than the one who is doing the interviews, but I just decided to get this certificate, you know? to stop talks like this because this is something that is really common in these progressive agencies in Naples that say that they have international clients and like a person with international experience counts and they are really scared because you can take their place. I don't know why it's happening so. FOMATPLAY really interesting. okay. I'm gonna ask you now like a set of questions. You can answer with a brief answer. okay, so define freedom of movement in one sentence. VIKTORIYA like if it's high or not to me in Europe? FOMATPLAY Yeah, like I said as you perceive it, as you feel it. As you have experienced it so far. VIKTORIYA I think it's pretty high, yeah. FOMATPLAY okay. And how would you sum up your freedom of movement experience, or your mobility experiences across the EU so far? VIKTORIYA I... considering that before I had the student residence, which was.. created a lot of problems with bureaucratic work. I would say that it's lower than normal, for sure. FOMATPLAY okay. how would you feel if your freedom of movement was revoked? VIKTORIYA hmm... but revoked and I would stay in Italy or? I think they were too terrified, yes. I would feel really scared to . FOMATPLAY where's home and where do you feel you belong? VIKTORIYA that's really-; that's really a painful question. I think it's Naples, yeah. I went to Russia. Last time I was-; when I went was three years ago. It was during the second wave of Covid and... well, it was a big shock for me to be in Russia and how Covid was perceived. And I think after that trip, I kind of fully accepted that it's not my home there anymore. FOMATPLAY what do you... how do you feel in your host country, that is Italy? VIKTORIYA comfortable in general, yeah. FOMATPLAY And what do you miss the most about Russia? VIKTORIYA my family and understanding that I grew up there. FOMATPLAY and would you take the same decisions today? why? why not? VIKTORIYA to move? hmm... I think uh... I would do it a bit earlier, for sure. uh... but for the rest, yeah, I would take the same decisions of studying for... either through work if there will be the possibility here. But that would not be because all Europeans are moving from outside of Europe for positions. So, yeah, I think I would just change the time frame to do it. even before. FOMATPLAY okay. who are you and could you define yourself using three or four words? VIKTORIYA oh. haha. um... well. I am... for sure, an immigrant. I don't define myself an expat because... yeah, I'm for sure an immigrant. Caucasian, as a race. Because I come from Russia. Still my ethnicity... you know? brought me a lot of privilege that helped me to create it here. Russian and.... this, as I said, would be very hard. Not because I'm proud of my citizenship, but because I think that it's part of collective responsibility that Russians, that grow up in Russia, especially in , let's say, that they are Russians originally. So it was immigrant, Caucasian, Russian but of course Neapolitan, I would say. FOMATPLAY Ok, wonderful! thank you Viktoriya for your time