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FOMATPLAY okay! thank you Savin for being here. it's a pleasure to have you and thank you for joining the project. um can you tell us something about your journey? so what brought you here in Italy? SAVIN so, I was born in the US, Brooklyn, and then I grew up in Portland, Maine, but my father is from Naples, Italy. I used to come here to visit the rest of the family because he was the only one that immigrated to the US and everybody else decided to stay here. so uh it was never a completely foreign place for me but it still is kind of a place in the middle; um and then when I graduated university I... after study journalism; I wanted to do journals up here because I felt that um... English language media in the west um was kind of restricted on some of the things they covered in Naples and especially the southern part of Italy and so I wanted to write stories about um... haha I wanted to write stories about the south and Naples and um... In 2018 I started to come here back and forth; but then that was not a sustainable thing to do to fly back and forth all the time; so I decided to move here in the fall 2019. FOMATPLAY and are you coming to stay? SAVIN um... ha ha. next; for at least the next couple of years yes. um but there are a few things that might make living here in the long term a little bit more difficult. FOMATPLAY for example? SAVIN I would like to have children at some point. um and being a gay man, the government of Italy has made that basically impossible, impossible, um... and so... at some points I would have to make the decision to try to find some way around it which still at this point in time doesn't look like it's possible hopefully the laws will change um but if they don't it doesn't... you know, I like... it's a part of my life that I would like to have but it looks like it's not possible in this country so... FOMATPLAY and how was it for you to come here and live permanently in in Naples? SAVIN it wasn't too difficult because I'm very, very fortunate to have Italian citizenship so uh that major step was, you know, already done for me. um However, the bureaucratic process here is quite a bit different than it is in the US and it's not as formal; it's not as... there aren't-, there are rules, but a lot of the rules aren't followed very strictly. um even getting my identity card was a pain in the ass. it was quite a process and even... for example, one of my friends at the time was doing the same thing and he got his 3 months before mine. And, you know, I'm still a citizen; this should have happened around the same time. But they were, like, confused with the fact that I was in the Italian system born abroad... I don't know what the problems were but... um I mean other than that, like, culturally speaking I felt pretty comfortable; Minor bumps here and there but nothing major. I feel very comfortable here. FOMATPLAY what kind of bumps? SAVIN Some of the bureaucratic stuff, some like minor cultural thing; also just like... there was Covid when I, after I moved here, so that was a bigger bump than others. um I think some of the ways that people interact with each other is a little bit different here. um I, I mean, like I'm pretty flexible so just like... it took me a couple of times to kind of get used to it so hmm FOMATPLAY In what way do people interact differently? SAVIN um I think sometimes um people... people here are extremely friendly very, very open but I think it's uh... I wanna say super official. but it's it's a very... like they're very welcoming. if you meet someone, let's say, you go to a bar; you go out with a friend or two friends, you start talking to other people that are very open, friendly, welcoming; but to become like to make deep friendships with people is a little bit trickier um which, you know, every place has their problems and cultural little quirks and whatever; so that's not that big of a deal. but things, things like that... FOMATPLAY okay. and what was your missing journey? SAVIN It's continuing still. um I grew up mostly speaking English. my father did teach me a little bit of Italian when I was younger um but because I wanted to fit in because I grew up in a kind of rural area of the US and I was the only child of an immigrant in that school. I wanted to fit in and so... very mean; as you know 8 9 10 year olds can be I asked my dad to stop speaking Italian to me because I wanted to fit in more um and he took that understandably very personally and he just stopped speaking Italian to me. Until I was in my early 20s and so I lost a lot of um years and practice that I could have had if um I wasn't a little asshole when I was a kid so... um so now... I mean, when I moved here I knew a little bit but the past four years I've evolved a lot. I'm finally able to have conversations, in depth conversations, political discussions uh... I still make mistakes, I would like to take a grammar class um... but I'm decently comfortable. I do have a weird accent that people point out every now and then so... um but other than that I think, um yeah I'm good. I think taking grammar classes would be a good idea. FOMATPLAY how important is it for you to speak Italian if you live in Italy, or in general? even.. I don't think it's... SAVIN I mean with with my job I have to interview people um... and so I would like to have a high level of fluency so they can feel comfortable uh telling me information, things that are happening and not feel like I'm not understanding what they're saying. um the other problem with that is that um a lot of the people that I interview are working class or poor and a lot of them speak exclusively Neapolitan or a mixture of Neapolitan Italian or Italian with like a really, really heavy Neapolitan accent; so I would-, I'm also trying to learn more Neapolitan to be able to communicate with more people like that so that's like another additional kind of thing but... FOMATPLAY s there anything that you cannot really put up with in Italy? or in Naples? SAVIN like, attitudes or? FOMATPLAY yes, values or behaviours. SAVIN um I think... love my people, first of all. Well put that out there first but, um... I think for historical and cultural reasons there tends to be a bit of complacency here when there's a problem um and people tend to just kind of be like "it is what it is what are we gonna do?" which is disheartening; it's very understandable, especially considering the historical and societal things that happened here and continue to happen here, and so I'm not necessarily putting the fault on people um... but it's it's sad that people feel like they don't-, their voice doesn't matter, and that they don't have a choice of their situations. Obviously they don't have it. Like nobody's choosing to be poor or going to organized crime or anything um... but, I don't know, I feel like in some aspects it's very communal. Neapolitan is a society but then in other aspects it's, like, hyper tribal, I would say. and a lot of people are like "woah that person is in this neighborhood so why should I give a shit about them" I'm like, look like a clotter; like like not 200 feet, you know. like what are you um... so that kind of thing bothers me a little bit, I wish there was a little bit more solidarity with people that were, are less fortunate. Already in the south and Naples people are not super fortunate but on top of that they still have um a pretty wide economic divide just in the city and I wish people would not project their feelings of maybe internalized inferiority onto other people that are less fortunate than them. FOMATPLAY mhm and what is the thing that you enjoy the most in here? SAVIN um kind of um... I'm not negating what I said before but I have really really good friendships here I have had the opportunity and time to cultivate a lot of really good and close friendships. I'm very very grateful for those um... I feel very comfortable here. the food is amazing, obviously. um and I do, like, feel part of this larger Mediterranean community that is something that I felt with my friends in the US but being here and like living in the Mediterranean is something that I really appreciate; I can kind of like look back to our ancestors or whatever and our family and say they lived here, they experienced this food, they were eating before and stuff. and so it's a kind of this culture thing FOMATPLAY so do you feel you are Mediterranean? SAVIN yeah. Ohh, before Neapolitan? oh boy. um... well for God! identity is such a difficult... I don't uh... I think I feel comfortable. I feel mostly Neapolitan but obviously I can't feel entirely Neapolitan because I did not grow up here I don't work here; I am not um completely fluent in Italian or in Neapolitan and so there is a bit of boundary. But like personally I feel very comfortable here. if I had to say like I feel more Neapolitan or Mediterranean I would say Neapolitan but then I feel like in Naples means you're also Mediterranean. I don't think one excludes the other. FOMATPLAY mmm hmm what about your Italianness? SAVIN what about it? FOMATPLAY do you feel you are also Italian? SAVIN No. FOMATPLAY okay, can you tell us more about that? SAVIN um I've been to other parts of Italy; beautiful! some places have better food than others um but I do feel like there is a very wide cultural, historical, linguistic gap between certain parts of the country, namely the north and the south um... And I've been to Puglia, I've been to Sicily, I've been to Calabria, I've also been to um uh Rome, Tuscany, Venice, um Milano Area, Torino and I I don't feel the same when I go up to the... I mean Roma a little bit but not that much um... I feel like values, wisdom, communication, um general ideas and things are very different there. um which doesn't mean that they're bad. it just means that they're different and I personally don't feel a very strong connection to those places. other people can disagree, they can have their own opinions and that's fine. this is my personal opinion um I feel, I feel much more comfortable and, in a way, accepted in most parts of the south and in the north. FOMATPLAY in what ways are their ideas different? SAVIN maybe not ideas but values. um obviously it's difficult to generalize about everybody and also considering the north is... there's a lot of immigrants from the south out there, so things are also mixed... um the ways it is, it is, I see more, almost like, American individuality in the north than I do in the south. um hospitality is lower, um I've had a couple of not super fun experiences. obviously not everybody in the south is like singing like happier whatever, but like the generally speaking I think um it is generally a little bit more welcoming. FOMATPLAY and how do you feel about Europe? what is Europe to you? SAVIIN what is Europe to me? like what what I consider Europe? like the countries? Oh Jesus... what is that? what is Europe? FOMATPLAY how have you experienced Europe so far? SAVIN I mean, to be honest I haven't travelled that much um. I've been here, obviously, Bosnia, Poland, the Netherlands and that's about it for like just saying. huh what? oh my God, I've also been in Greece. um and I think I don't know if I have enough personal experience to make a comment about Europe as a whole; who constitutes, who's in Europe. um I can just say the experiences that I've had, for example in Amsterdam, um if I already talked about a cultural difference between northern and southern Italy, the difference between southern Italy and Amsterdam is like an ocean. it is a massive difference. which again is not a bad thing but it is very, very different. um I... for example, and this is again my personal opinion um. I studied in Morocco for a semester when I was at university and I personally felt much closer to Moroccans than I did to Dutch people. um and apparently Moroccan felt closer to southern Italians than they did other European people too. for example, like I got into God knows many cabs and several times I'll get into conversations with the taxi drivers be like "oh where you from?". "from southern Italy". "oh cousin, Oh mediterranean blah blah blah blah" um and uh which is not necessarily an experience I think I would have or had in the Netherlands, so... FOMATPLAY do you feel-, do you do you feel you have, like, a European identity or something that connects you to Europe? SAVIN personally? no, um I don't. how critical can I be? FOMATPLAY as much as you want. SAVIN um I've talked to people who have said this thing that I still don't fully understand and they're like "oh yeah European ideals of things like democracy" um and I don't understand why people think democracy is a European ideal or that only European countries have democracy. um I think um I think the idea that if you're in the European Union or if you're in certain countries that are considered Europe, we all are ideologically the same. Is not correct historically, socially, economically, linguistically at all. um I think it's a very forced identity for probably the benefit of largely northern Western European countries. um and I think a lot of people in Italy have kind of fallen into that tropical like "oh well we're European. we're like basically the same as Norwegians". which like, no. that's fine. It's okay to be different. what do we have in common with Norwegians? like culturally and historically... like... I don't know. I feel like it's like a very forced thing and I don't understand why. like you can be, you can create a union of different places while acknowledging the differences of those places without forcing an identity and enclosing a group of people into something that doesn't exist. Like you want to create a European Union based on trade or something, wonderful! great! love that! but I don't think this idea of like Europe "we're all like holding hands; we have the same ideals; we're better than everybody else" that doesn't make any sense. And I think like, especially for countries in southern Europe that are on the periphery of that like southern Italy, Greece, the Balkans, let's say Georgia too, that relationship is a whole... difficult. and I think a lot of people on that understand that to a degree but maybe have a hard time articulating that without facing harsh criticism; being like... FOMATPLAY okay. and uh how do you feel about uh the attitudes towards migration in Naples slash Italy slash Europe? SAVIN um we'll start with Naples? um Naples is not like a wonderland of happiness when it comes to migration. um people do face racism here; people do face xenophobia here; people do have problems; um but the people that I've struggle to um... maybe in the Muslim community or the migrant community or people just individuals from countries like Nigeria or Sierra Leone um they have told me that they generally feel... yes they have problems here but the problems they've had here shattered the problems that they've had in other parts of Italy. um there's this one guy that I'm friends with he sells cigarette lighters on the street um and he was saying that when he went to... I think it was Milan he said people didn't even look at him they didn't even acknowledge him as a human being; nobody spoke to him, nobody looked at him; he said he felt like a ghost. while here maybe not everybody's like super nice but at least he has interactions with people. he can have conversations with people, they see him as a human being which is something he feels like he didn't feel in other parts of Italy, especially the north. that's his experience um another thing... like for example um when a mosque opened up uh in the Mercato area of Nabels I was speaking with the Iman there and he was saying that when they first opened up um the people of the neighborhood, the Neapolitans, were a little suspicious. they didn't really understand what was happening. there's this one time when a kid on a bike slapped him going by. um but then he said they always have their doors open and that every now and then the neapolitan people, the neighborhood would come in and kind of like ask questions or see what's up. the ones that understood that like they're just like some muslim people doing whatever they need to do to pray whatever. He said that now they have like totally normal relationships with everybody; there's a shop across the street that they have bread or bagels or.. oh my God. bread um and they, you know, they feel like they're part of the neighborhood now. um and so I feel like integration here, also taking into account southern Italy history of being very mixed, being conquered by God knows as many people uh, migration trade... it offers an environment where maybe that integration is a little bit quicker than other places. still not perfect, still a lot of problems, still racism. but generally I think that's what it does in a nutshell. Italy, however, um as a whole, especially the current government, is extremely hostile towards immigrants and migrants. um flat out racist and xenophobic without a doubt um... they try to hide behind like "oh we're trying to make a deal with this country" or you know "we, we care about..". "no we don't give a shit" you know like "we don't care" um. And for example even, even just a simple thing of making uh migrant rescue ships uh go to ports that are two to three days away instead of uh asylum ports that are closer just to make their job more difficult is extremely hostile, you know. what, what could possibly be the justification for that? if it's something like "oh we don't want southern ports to be crowded" organize a transportation system within the country then. you know, like there's no need to do things like that. um aside from the incredible racial-, racist, xenophobic rhetoric and politicians especially on the right skew every day um... Then there is European migrantwise um... I think it's similar, generally, to the ideas of Italy. We just saw in the Netherlands the elections that came out with the extremely far right, Oh my God what's the name G... I can't remember. I think that's... you know, a pretty decent example of how many, not all, many European countries view migration and immigration is that it's something bad it's something that they don't need to have, it's something that like they wanna um disturb their local ecosystem or whatever that means; um also forgetting that, you know, human beings have been migrating and moving and immigrating to places since time began. so it's not like you, you're 100% of your ancestors only lived in one town, you know. um does that answer your question? FOMATPLAY wonderfully! um and have you ever experienced hostility while being in Italy? FOMATPLAT hmm I mean, like... I look like this. it's like in the street I don't think anybody's gonna bother me. um In Torino I did have a couple of uncomfortable interactions. I don't know if it was because I had a weird accent or um I was just unknown to certain people in certain buildings; um I would like to give them the benefit of the doubts but maybe they were just xenophobic, I don't know. um in Naples no. I don't really... I mean, like... I fit in decently well also I don't think I've ever had in me... um my friends tease my accent, you know. that's not really... that's the most hostile thing that's ever happened here, so... other than that no. FOMATPLAY and how does that make you feel? SAVIN I'm used to getting teased, generally speaking, so that's not a big deal. well, my friends do it so I'm like person on the street it's just like... oh one time, actually. I just remember this; um I was at the supermarket and I was ordering mortadella and that was when I moved here so maybe I did not know how to explain things very well. And I asked for the mortadella that has the little pistacchio inside of it. I don't know what I said but the guy started laughing at me and I was like wait "what did I say wrong?". I don't know what happened and then and then he told the other people in the Salumeria what I said and then they started laughing too. and I was like what... and so I never went back there. I was like I don't wanna do this again. um I just like literal-, little.. I forget the name of something and and people are like "actually it's this". I think sometimes because I have, my friends have a Neapolitan cadence but like an American accent so people if they don't listen closely they might think I'm just from here; and I think if I don't understand some like very basic words or like a conversation and people don't know me I think they might think I'm just like stupid or something and so they speak very slowly. and I'm like I understand what you're saying it's just that one word, you know. other than that okay okay FOMATPLAY um let's talk about Brexit what kind of memories uh do you have about that historical moment? political moment, social moment um... did that impact you even in some way or not really? SAVIN I mean, I've never had any desire to move to the UK so personally no um. I felt bad for all of the people though. there's a lot-, there's a large Italian community in the UK. um all along with other immigrant communities there that come from the EU and so... um I felt bad that um, you know, what are they gonna do? what are their next steps? um in terms of how they voted and I remember Brexit came around the same time Trump got elected. and so while we were mourning that that in the US um it felt a little distant if I'm being completely honest. um I, I didn't have; I didn't really have any sympathy for the British, British. like the like white British people that uh voted for this that would probably suffer under whatever kind of repercussions it would be. um I kind of felt, like, like in the US I was like they voted for this so they're gonna have to deal with whatever repercussions come um... I felt bad for everybody else though that had to deal with their choice so... FOMATPLAY so, okay. can you tell us something about your socio-political contribution to the community in which you are? SAVIN so in my work I try to cover um issues that are either undercovered or completely underreported in Southern Italy and specifically Naples. um for example issues surrounding the Muslim community, um immigration, um different perspectives surrounding organized crime, victims of organized crime, police brutality, things like that. um or even as simple as um maybe certain cultural things that are not discussed outside of Naples or Italy; For example um the history of the Femminielli community here um yes. FOMATPLAY mhm and um how is your uh support network in the area? so do you feel you can trust people? you can rely on people? SAVIN yeah, generally speaking, I feel like I do. I feel like I have a decent network of friends and co-workers and um people around my age I feel like if I have a problem I could go to them if I need to set an interview on people that I could go to um... just an example, like I had I have a friend who has a bookstore and he is a walking encyclopedia and so I asked him I was like "oh is there a store in Naples that still like sells this... like a hat place?". He's like well let me think about it. oh yeah there is this one place: you go down the street... and so like so far I feel like any problem that I've had... has... I have people that I could contact that would be able to help me and I'm very grateful for that. FOMATPLAY and um can you tell us something about your um work? and your working-... the working environment which you, in which you are? SAVIN um so I am a freelance journalist, um which is notoriously not super stable and I can verify that; this is not very stable. um however, there is... I do have the freedom to pick and choose what kind of stories or topics that I cover. um also unfortunately uh it doesn't pay very well and it's not very stable economically speaking either. um but I feel like I'm able to be part of the community in a way that I might not necessarily be able to be if I was reporting on other things or if I was a staff writer or if I was assigned certain stories. so I can really um be part of certain communities that I choose to be part of or that I think are important to have connections in, in a way that I think maybe would be difficult if I was not a freelancer. FOMATPLAY do you think it is generally easy to find a job in Italy? SAVIN oh God! no, Jesus. absolutely not. No. um generally no especially in the south, absolutely not. I think um if I remember correctly the unemployment, the general unemployment covers around 20% and the youth unemployment covers around 50% so it is extremely bad; it is some of the worst in Europe. so... FOMATPLAY And how do you feel about this? SAVIN um it's really sad and I wish um some state or government entity would do a little bit more to invest in the south. um even, I knwo I've said before that I personally don't feel European but we are part of the European Union, so if we had some kind of economic support that could replace the lack of economic support that the state of Italy isn't giving us that would be good because you know I think maybe we can you know you can talk about unemployments or poverty rates. This is kind of like abstract thing. but within those things people real people are suffering, you know, people are um there are thousands of people that are struggling to eat. they don't have um an income that allows them to eat certain things during the week because it's too expensive. they can't afford to do certain things um... they, they have trouble, you know, raising their kids, keeping them out of organized crime; things like that. These are all effects of unemployment. the poverty rates um that people in this country, especially on some television news networks, kind of saying "what? it's not... they should work harder" where? doing what? there are no jobs, there are no investments in the south. so where are they gonna go? to the north. that's already wealthy that will benefit from the work. so bye. FOMATPLAY yeah and um so where is home and where do you feel you belong? SAVIN um I don't know where do I belong, shit. um Jesus, um uh... I think that's a that's a deeper question than I think you thought it was. I have no idea, um... Jesus... um I... in the US. I feel like when you say home do you mean like a place or do you mean like a feeling? FOMATPLAY it's up to you. both maybe. SAVIN I mean like cheesy kind of like cop out answer would be like I feel at home with my friends and community and family and whatever... um I don't know if there's a place that I feel 100% at home but I don't necessarily think that that's a bad thing uh for me. um I feel like, yeah it's cheesy. but I feel like home is where you make it kinda um... I feel like maybe I, I could; and people in general could have multiple homes. I feel like one of my homes is here maybe another one of my homes is in the US; maybe there will be another home for me in the future. I don't necessarily think it's one place um and I think, I think that's, you know, at times a little difficult to not feel 100%, you know, relaxed and, you know, feel like you're able to fit in 100% but at the same time I think it... in my personal experience keeps you kind of like the brain cells moving a little bit and so keep you... what's the world? FOMATPLAY stimulated ? SAVIN Stimulated, thank you. I'm forgetting all about that but just uh communicating anything okay yes. FOMATPLAY what about your American identity? since you mentioned the States. so what do you miss the most about the States for instance? SAVIN um I miss my friends a lot. I miss my family. um I miss uh certain experiences or times of the year in certain places. but I do not miss the US as like a political social place. um FOMATAPLAY why not? SAVIN um every place has their problems, obviously. Italy is no exception. Italy has a lot of problems um but I feel like America's hyper individualistic um completely unhinged capitalism; those two things together makes for a very difficult way of life and then adding to that the fact that I come from, my father comes from a country that is or an area of our country that's much more communalistic and some of the values that I grew up with, with him, and I discovered when I made friends with my friends at any university that come from other Mediterranean countries or African countries and Eastern countries um... that we had much more in common than we did with the average, for example, white American. um and so I just I never fully felt 100% part of American society because of there's this kind of a cultural disconnect. um I know that sounds kind of weird because I was born and grew up there but um I don't know, it was just kind of a thing that I never felt 100% at ease there. culturally, economically, with the ideals of American society. It was just everything that I kind of um... uh shared. FOMATPLAY hmm okay and... um okay so what is freedom of movement to you and how have you experienced uh freedom of movement so far? SAVIN what? um um can you repeat the question? FOMATPLAY yes. what is freedom of movement to you? SAVIN ideally or like what is it actually? FOMATPLAY up to you SAVIN um let's say ideally it would be the freedom of-, to move freely between and throughout places without the restrictions of um hard borders or strict immigration laws. ideally that would be nice. um unfortunately we know that it's not like this and certain countries arbitrarily have more rights than others. and that is incredibly unfair and unjusted. I don't think that I believe we should continue on that but... that's my opinion FOMATPLAY and um how have you experienced freedom of movement so far? SAVIN because I am extremely privileged when it comes to having two strong passports I have not experiences any big issues with freedom of movement. Immigration for me, especially the EU, is incredibly easy and when I'm traveling with friends that are not European citizens um, especially people from countries in North Africa or the Middle East, um it is difficult to move around. FOMATPLAY okay. um okay. so we actually reached the the end of the interview and now I'm gonna ask you a question, a set of short questions and you can reply with a few words or something short, okay? so define freedom of movement in one sentence. SAVIN um the ability for all people to move freely between Nations. FOMATPLAY mm hmm and how would you sum up your freedom of movement experience for across Europe so far? SAVIN unrightfully privileged. FOMATPLAY In a few words how would you feel if your freedom of movement was removed? SAVIN upset FOMATPLAY and, sorry about that. where's home and where do you feel you belong? SAVIN um home is more than one place and I feel like I belong wherever. I feel the most welcome and comfortable lies in the community. FOMATPLAY How do you feel in your host country, Italy? pretty good. could be better, could be significant worse so... FOMATPLAY what do you miss the most about your home country? SAVIN fried chicken I love, love Neapolitan food; I love southern Italian food but I do miss the variety of other cuisines and um the ease of bureaucracy in the US. FOMATPLAY would you take the same decision today? why? SAVIN would... um I feel professionally and personally more fulfilled here than I did in the USA. Yeah. FOMATPLAY and who are you? SAVIN what? FOMATPLAY could you define yourself using three or four words? SAVIN what? um uh who am I? um can I just stick to the last part of the question? okay um um.... empathetic, curious and introverted FOMATPLAY okay okay, wonderful. thank you thank you very much and hope to see you soon.